Breeding our own 'meats'...etc etc

[rbc-bow-chicka]

We have year old Dark Cornish and White Rock chickens. Got these specific breeds to start a breeding program to 'make' our own good 'meat birds'. Basically, 'Cornish x' of some kind.

*I know that commercial hatcheries have years science going into their breeds so ours will never approach the 'perfect' chicks that come from them.* We just want some heavy birds, good for meat.

My question deals with 'generations' of hatchlings. For example we have a Dark Cornish roo over White Rock hens and a White Rock roo over Dark Cornish hens. What is our next step with breeding? I am presuming we would proceed with the X chicks and couple with either a full white rock roo or hen?

If this question is better addressed elsewhere, please direct me.

Thank you.

 

[NatJ]

We have year old Dark Cornish and White Rock chickens. Got these specific breeds to start a breeding program to 'make' our own good 'meat birds'. Basically, 'Cornish x' of some kind.

*I know that commercial hatcheries have years science going into their breeds so ours will never approach the 'perfect' chicks that come from them.* We just want some heavy birds, good for meat.

My question deals with 'generations' of hatchlings. For example we have a Dark Cornish roo over White Rock hens and a White Rock roo over Dark Cornish hens. What is our next step with breeding? I am presuming we would proceed with the X chicks and couple with either a full white rock roo or hen?

I would probably just keep a pure flock of Dark Cornish, and a separate pure flock of White Rocks. Then you could cross them each year to produce your meat chicks. Since White Rocks are usually better layers than Dark Cornish, I would use White Rocks as the mothers and Dark Cornish as the father.

You could try several different crosses, and keep records of which ones work how well. I would expect the Dark Cornish x White Rock to produce the most uniform chicks, that may also be the best growers. I would expect mix x White Rock to grow fast, but maybe not get such big breasts. I would expect mix x Dark Cornish to grow slower, but maybe have bigger breasts than the others.

If you are trying to get a chicken that can breed true for one generation after another, you can mix and match in a variety of ways, depending on which traits you are focusing on at which time.

In general, I would expect a first-generation hybrid to grow a bit faster than a bird that breeds true, because of hybrid vigor.

For anything where I say "I would expect," the results could easily be different than what I am expecting, if the exact lines of Dark Cornish and White Rock are different than what I think they are (different hatcheries or breeders do produce birds with slightly different traits, and sometimes slight differences add up to big changes in results.)

 

[rbc-bow-chicka]

I would probably just keep a pure flock of Dark Cornish, and a separate pure flock of White Rocks. Then you could cross them each year to produce your meat chicks. Since White Rocks are usually better layers than Dark Cornish, I would use White Rocks as the mothers and Dark Cornish as the father.

You could try several different crosses, and keep records of which ones work how well. I would expect the Dark Cornish x White Rock to produce the most uniform chicks, that may also be the best growers. I would expect mix x White Rock to grow fast, but maybe not get such big breasts. I would expect mix x Dark Cornish to grow slower, but maybe have bigger breasts than the others.

If you are trying to get a chicken that can breed true for one generation after another, you can mix and match in a variety of ways, depending on which traits you are focusing on at which time.

In general, I would expect a first-generation hybrid to grow a bit faster than a bird that breeds true, because of hybrid vigor.

For anything where I say "I would expect," the results could easil be different than what I am expecting, if the exact lines of Dark Cornish and White Rock are different than what I think they are (different hatcheries or breeders do produce birds with slightly different traits, and sometimes slight differences add up to big changes in results.)

'I would expect.' Love it. These words come regularly here.

This was the exact expectation we had when ordering the chicks originally.

We are not going to have chick to freezer in 6 to 8 weeks... but focused mostly on the differences in laying, mothering, breast size etc.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what happens. If it is an utter failure, then I will just have some beautiful flocks that can I can keep going in their own.

Aside from this, we also got RIR chicks to mix with the WR to see what we could come up with in the layer department. Same scenario- roos and hens.

Too much time on my hands, apparently. Lol.

I really appreciate your thoughtful response.

 

[NatJ]

'I would expect.' Love it. These words come regularly here.

This was the exact expectation we had when ordering the chicks originally.

We are not going to have chick to freezer in 6 to 8 weeks... but focused mostly on the differences in laying, mothering, breast size etc.

You may want to keep records on how big they are at each age. Any chicks will tend to grow faster at first, and slow down as they get older, so you might find that you do want to butcher them at a young age (fast growth, tender) rather than continuing to raise them to a bigger size (never as big as typical Cornish Cross, but bigger than if you had butchered the same birds at a younger age.)

You mention mothering: are you wanting to have broody hens hatch the chicks, instead of using an incubator? Dark Cornish are more likely to go broody than White Rocks, although of course there are no guarantees about which specific hens actually will go broody.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what happens. If it is an utter failure, then I will just have some beautiful flocks that can I can keep going in their own.

And of course all the chicks will be edible, even if they don't grow as big or as fast as you hope.

Aside from this, we also got RIR chicks to mix with the WR to see what we could come up with in the layer department. Same scenario- roos and hens.

I assume you are planning for sexlinks? Red rooster x white hen gives red daughters and white sons, assuming the white mother has the "right" kind of white genes. You should know for sure after the first round of chicks hatch. If all chicks are white, including both males and females, then you have the "wrong" kind of white hens to make color-sexable chicks (sexlinks), but the daughters should still be good layers and the sons will be just as edible as ever.

(If the White Rocks have the right genes for white, you will also get color-sexable chicks when you cross them to a Dark Cornish rooster. Again, red daughters and white sons.)

Too much time on my hands, apparently. Lol.

It's a fun way to use that time

If you want color-sexable chicks in more colors, you can run a mixed flock of white hens and barred hens (like Barred Rocks) with the Rhode Island Red rooster, and chicks will hatch in four colors: red pullets and black pullets, white cockerels and cockerels that are black with yellow dots on their head (white barring will be visible on the black feathers as they grow.)

I did that one year, and it was fun to get 4 colors of chicks from the one pen, all sexable at hatch.

I really appreciate your thoughtful response.

Years ago, I tried exactly the same idea-- but the hatchery sent me Dark Cornish BANTAMS instead of standards. They were cute little birds, but not the right choice for making meat chicks! They are impressively heavy for their (small) size, because they have such a round body shape and their feathers are close to their body instead of fluffing up to look big. They turned out to be nice broodies too.

 

[rbc-bow-chicka]

You may want to keep records on how big they are at each age. Any chicks will tend to grow faster at first, and slow down as they get older, so you might find that you do want to butcher them at a young age (fast growth, tender) rather than continuing to raise them to a bigger size (never as big as typical Cornish Cross, but bigger than if you had butchered the same birds at a younger age.)

You mention mothering: are you wanting to have broody hens hatch the chicks, instead of using an incubator? Dark Cornish are more likely to go broody than White Rocks, although of course there are no guarantees about which specific hens actually will go broody.


And of course all the chicks will be edible, even if they don't grow as big or as fast as you hope.


I assume you are planning for sexlinks? Red rooster x white hen gives red daughters and white sons, assuming the white mother has the "right" kind of white genes. You should know for sure after the first round of chicks hatch. If all chicks are white, including both males and females, then you have the "wrong" kind of white hens to make color-sexable chicks (sexlinks), but the daughters should still be good layers and the sons will be just as edible as ever.

(If the White Rocks have the right genes for white, you will also get color-sexable chicks when you cross them to a Dark Cornish rooster. Again, red daughters and white sons.)


It's a fun way to use that time

If you want color-sexable chicks in more colors, you can run a mixed flock of white hens and barred hens (like Barred Rocks) with the Rhode Island Red rooster, and chicks will hatch in four colors: red pullets and black pullets, white cockerels and cockerels that are black with yellow dots on their head (white barring will be visible on the black feathers as they grow.)

I did that one year, and it was fun to get 4 colors of chicks from the one pen, all sexable at hatch.


Years ago, I tried exactly the same idea-- but the hatchery sent me Dark Cornish BANTAMS instead of standards. They were cute little birds, but not the right choice for making meat chicks! They are impressively heavy for their (small) size, because they have such a round body shape and their feathers are close to their body instead of fluffing up to look big. They turned out to be nice broodies too.

I will never say no to a broody!! Lol. They make my life easier. I'd read that somewhere about the dark Cornish so I tucked that away in my brain.

Right now, I have a mish mosh of roos and hens together.... and an incubator full of their eggs ready to hatch on Friday. I have a RIR and DC roo in with RIR, DC and WR hens. In the other coop I have a RIR and WR roo in with DC and WR hens. It is an absolute love fest out there. I will not jinx myself, but it is surprisingly quiet out there.

I do need to get everyone tucked away into their correct groupings, though. The hurricane messed up my plans by damaging a coop. Should be done soon.

But anyway... I have a crazy grab bag mix that is going to hopefully pop out on Friday. All were fertile when candled at 9 days. Will candle again at lock down.

This correct gene in the whites has me a little concerned, though. Had no idea. I should have made a special request when I ordered the chicks! Haha.

 

[NatJ]

This correct gene in the whites has me a little concerned, though. Had no idea. I should have made a special request when I ordered the chicks! Haha.

There are about four ways (genetically speaking) to make a white chicken, and only one of them will work for making sexlinks.

To make sexlinks, you need the Silver gene (turns red/gold into white.) If you want to be sure of having that gene, you can use something like Delawares or Columbian Rocks or Columbian Wyandottes. The bits of black in all those patterns are enough to show that the white is actually caused by Silver. If your White Rocks are right for making sexlinks, they have that, plus a gene called Dominant White that turns black into white.

Right now, I have a mish mosh of roos and hens together.... and an incubator full of their eggs ready to hatch on Friday. I have a RIR and DC roo in with RIR, DC and WR hens. In the other coop I have a RIR and WR roo in with DC and WR hens. It is an absolute love fest out there. I will not jinx myself, but it is surprisingly quiet out there.

With those mixes:

If you get any chicks that are red/gold and grow white feathers in their wings and tails, then at least some of your White Rock hens are the right kind for making sexlinks. (Coloring would look very much like the commerically-available Red Sexlinks that get sold as ISA Brown, Red Star, Gold Comet, and so forth.) All such chicks would be pullets.

If you get any pullets that are all white without being pure White Rocks, then you have at least one White Rock with the wrong genes (probably a genetically black chicken, with Dominant White turning it to white: but being genetically black all over, it doesn't show the gold or silver that you need to see for sexing.) If you know which eggs came from which pen, and if you have them hatch inside mesh bags or baskets or something, you could watch for any white pullets from the pen that has no White Rock rooster. Or from either pen, a white pullet with a pea comb would have to be a mix (white from White Rock, pea comb from Dark Cornish.)

If you get any chicks that are all black, or black with white barring, then you also have at least one White Rock with wrong genes (probably a genetically black chicken, with or without white barring, that has the recessive white gene turning it white all over. Breeding to any other color means the chicks inherit only one recessive white gene, and since that is recessive it does not make the chicks white.)

Sometimes chickens that look white have more than one set of genes that make them that way, so there is a chance you might get different results from different ones of your White Rocks.

Any chick with a pea comb has at least one Dark Cornish parent.
Chicks with single combs have two single comb parents (White Rock, Rhode Island Red, or a mix of the two).

 

[rbc-bow-chicka]

There are about four ways (genetically speaking) to make a white chicken, and only one of them will work for making sexlinks.

To make sexlinks, you need the Silver gene (turns red/gold into white.) If you want to be sure of having that gene, you can use something like Delawares or Columbian Rocks or Columbian Wyandottes. The bits of black in all those patterns are enough to show that the white is actually caused by Silver. If your White Rocks are right for making sexlinks, they have that, plus a gene called Dominant White that turns black into white.


With those mixes:

If you get any chicks that are red/gold and grow white feathers in their wings and tails, then at least some of your White Rock hens are the right kind for making sexlinks. (Coloring would look very much like the commerically-available Red Sexlinks that get sold as ISA Brown, Red Star, Gold Comet, and so forth.) All such chicks would be pullets.

If you get any pullets that are all white without being pure White Rocks, then you have at least one White Rock with the wrong genes (probably a genetically black chicken, with Dominant White turning it to white: but being genetically black all over, it doesn't show the gold or silver that you need to see for sexing.) If you know which eggs came from which pen, and if you have them hatch inside mesh bags or baskets or something, you could watch for any white pullets from the pen that has no White Rock rooster. Or from either pen, a white pullet with a pea comb would have to be a mix (white from White Rock, pea comb from Dark Cornish.)

If you get any chicks that are all black, or black with white barring, then you also have at least one White Rock with wrong genes (probably a genetically black chicken, with or without white barring, that has the recessive white gene turning it white all over. Breeding to any other color means the chicks inherit only one recessive white gene, and since that is recessive it does not make the chicks white.)

Sometimes chickens that look white have more than one set of genes that make them that way, so there is a chance you might get different results from different ones of your White Rocks.

Any chick with a pea comb has at least one Dark Cornish parent.
Chicks with single combs have two single comb parents (White Rock, Rhode Island Red, or a mix of the two).

I am so sorry for the late reply. My day got away from me starting right after my last reply to you, and have sat down this morning to fully digest your response.

This is absolutely fascinating!! *ABSOLUTELY!!!!!* I think it will really help me so much when those buggers make their appearance. I have 2 7 egg incubators going and plan to move them into a larger incubator that I am using as a hatcher. Then, I have some RIR eggs that were gifted to me to make up for lost chicks from Murray McMurray that kinked up my plans last spring, even before the hurricane.

I had ordered 2 cockerels and 3 pullets.... and 2 of the 3 died! One after arrival and the next about a week later. That put me off RIR chicks as I just kind of presumed they are on the 'delicate' side..... and that is me being simply ridiculous because I have never had RIR to compare them to... and this remaining girl is as tough as nails.

Anyway, that was a huge unrelated aside to our discussion of helping me figure who's who in my zoo.

Your help has been invaluable to me.... you really have NO idea how much i have appreciated you taking the time with such clear and concise responses. I also have not mentioned how much I enjoy geeking out about genetics so you have given me that gift for sure. (Though you might have figured that out!!) Lol.

 

[NatJ]

I also have not mentioned how much I enjoy geeking out about genetics so you have given me that gift for sure. (Though you might have figured that out!!) Lol.

I agree, genetics can be great fun

 

[rbc-bow-chicka]

I agree, genetics can be great fun

 

[rbc-bow-chicka]

So this is what came out. 100% fertility on 14 eggs. One quitter, so 13 eggs into the hatcher and 13 chicks came out. This has been my best hatch ever. And certainly the most colorful.

I can't really read the combs right now they are so small and I don't want to irritate them too much until I've made sure they all have had a drink and feed.

A couple of the yellow ones have darker areas in their down. The dark chipmunky looking ones look like the DC. The red chipmunky, I imagine could be RIR × DC, I think all the red ones all have lighter bellies, but not 100% sure as they are running around too much.