Breeding sexlink to sexlink

[jmc]

It is pretty well known that the F1 progeny of laying hybrids (for example the f1 progeny of the amazing Golden 300 laying duck) will NOT be as productive as the hybrid parents. And so on.

This is the basis of my determination to retain as breeders fine layers from the sex linked birds I will breed. Most likely, if one were to just breed randomly these sex links and their progeny, the rate of lay would keep decreasing to a certain point. This is also why one could argue that the f1 offspring of sex links may NOT produce as well as their parents.

In fact, they probably will not. This is where careful selection comes in.

It seems that some people think that sex links were created for the sole purpose of having babies that could be easily sexed. It is pretty clear that that is NOT the reason for making sex links (though it could be a secondary motive for sure, or a primary motive which took a back seat once it was discovered how well these sex links produced).

Sex links were made because they could lay more eggs. That is why sex links are described as having 'hybrid vigor'. Hybrid vigor can have nothing to do with the color of the fluff on a baby chick!

Hybrid vigor seen primarily as laying prowess, is why sex links were created, it seems (as well as their fine health, obviously).

The hybrid offspring of two so called pure breed parents, depending on the breed of the parents, can out-produce their mothers (or their paternal aunts). Why? Because the cross produces hybrid vigor.

This vigor WILL NOT generally persist if you then breed these first generation sex link offspring. This is why I expect there will be some loss of laying prowess in the offspring of the sex link parents I will breed.

Pure Parents

then

sexlinked offspring with hybrid vigor/health and laying prowess

then

non sexlinked offspring with lesser laying prowess

then from these last birds you begin more careful selection, depending on your goals.

So yes, the f1 offspring of two sexlinks should not produce as well as the mother, possessed as she was of 'hybrid vigor'.

This may be the main reason, if not the sole reason, why alot of farmers just buy new flocks of sex links every one or two years rather than breeding them: precisely because the offspring of the sex links will NOT be as productive.

 

[jmc]

Fred's Hens :

One can use most any starting stock to begin a breeding program. Careful selection of the traits and features that one finds desirable.
The "trick" however, is to stabilize the offspring, achieving consistent offspring according to the breeders desired traits.

It isn't easy to do. Even today, a "sport" or non-typical offspring appears. In fact, producing consistent, almost predictable offspring is the minority not the majority of offspring. The gene pool of the parent stock is large. Whether one is breeding beagles, as I have, or chickens, one has to have skill, patience, knowledge and a lot of luck. Out of two litters of 6 pups each, maybe, maybe one pup would be so sharp, that I would keep it. The rest were fine, fine dogs, but not consistent with what I was going for.

i think you are right on the nose, fred.

that is why i could never create a new breed!! not enough stamina!!

 

[jmc]

Fred's Hens :

One can use most any starting stock to begin a breeding program. Careful selection of the traits and features that one finds desirable.
The "trick" however, is to stabilize the offspring, achieving consistent offspring according to the breeders desired traits.

It isn't easy to do. Even today, a "sport" or non-typical offspring appears. In fact, producing consistent, almost predictable offspring is the minority not the majority of offspring. The gene pool of the parent stock is large. I think these last three sentences are very important. many byc ers who bash hatcheries like to boast that their 'breeder quality' birds nearly always represent the standard. at least that is the sense i get from many of them. Whether one is breeding beagles, as I have, or chickens, one has to have skill, patience, knowledge and a lot of luck. Out of two litters of 6 pups each, maybe, maybe one pup would be so sharp, that I would keep it. The rest were fine, fine dogs, but not consistent with what I was going for.​

 

[Fred's Hens]

I have not bred chickens and have no real interest. Thus, my screen name. I prefer to leave that to others. I do enjoy brooding, however.

I do know this about breeding. Starting with the very, very best works out the best. I have had some spectacular commercial hybrids or sex links. Much of the prejudice and even outright false statements make about them is unfounded. Great health, vigor, laying and personality. I might breed a select few of those, if I chose to. While profuse laying might drop a bit, the excellent laying stock from which they spring, would be very difficult to breed out of them. They'll be excellent layers alright.

The problem, for me anyhow, is that I also like a handsome bird in appearance. THAT is what is so difficult when one begins with a hybrid of such opposing color schemes. Most F1 Red Sex links are handsome, but, the use of vastly different colored parents to achieve a easily distinguishable chick by color is the very thing that will make breeding their next generation offspring such a mottled affair. There are simply so many possibilities in coloration in the gene pool. FWIW.

 

[jmc]

again, thanks fred.

yes, my breeding plans are very low level. i just want to have a flock of good layers that i can reproduce--or allow to reproduce, with some intervention from yours truly!

i don't care what they look like, all i hope for is some decent layers. the reason why i chose the moyer's brown egg layer is that is the best price right now and it will lay like heck for a good while. i figure that, being the babies of rir and white rock laying type moms, how can the offspring of the sexlinks i hope to breed NOT be good layers? even if they're not as good as their parents--and i do NOT know that they won't be either.

I'm just not gonna use any bird that seems kind of weak as a breeder--or one that has been a 'slack' layer (if there can be such a thing in a moyer's brown egg layer!)

i am a monk in a monastery, so being a serious breeder will never ever ever be part of my life. I would just like to be able to perpetuate the birds that we will get this april, and have good, healthy, sweet layers. and a couple nasty roos to be sentinel!

All i know about breeding comes from what i have read, or from what others have told me about there experience. Part of my 'theory' about the loss of productivity in the f1 offspring of sexlink parents, for example, is derived from a conversation i had with John Metzer, whose place developed the golden 300 hybrid laying duck. I asked him what would happen if i bred them, and he said i might expect a +/- 5% drop in production in each succeeding generation.

But maybe that was a sales pitch

you take care fred. always good dealing with you.

I wanted to order the isa browns very much, but moyers' price for the number i wanted beat townline by much. plus moyers is quite close to me, by comparison.

peace

 

[drjcooper]

Quote:
With all due respect, all "show birds" were initially mutts and some were considered "mutts" until the last few years. Try to mindful not insinuate that one of our members made such a silly statement that it requires "of course" at the beginning of your statement. I know of several breeders breeding "mutts" , and the word on the street is a few will be adopted into the APA standard of perfection. Who knows the Red-Star or Black-Star maybe adopted. However, I think what the member was saying is he doesn't care if he is producing purebred show stock. He wants' consistent producers. I may be wrong.

With that said, there is no reason that selective breeding would not continue to improve this "breed", You would loose the ability to sex-link, but I am sure that you can create an excellent dual purpose bird if you have a good understanding on genetics, time, and patience.
If your objective is not to create a new breed for the purpose of showing, then do your research. I have breed several sex links, back to Delawares have been very prolific for the last 2 years , out crosses with other breed continue to keep that high breed vigor if you are mindful of the genetics behind each breed.
Part of the fun of raising chickens is to experiment! I say breed away my friend! If sex link -x-sex link hens stop producing around a year old (I bet that is not the norm!), then cull them to the crock pot! Keep the consistent layers and breed them to roosters from consistent layers, and there you go! Good luck my friend

 

[jmc]

thank you, drj!

i don't know how much i will be able to dive into genetics. i would like to do some. i did a fair amount when i kept ducks until jan 29 last. yet, i am not planning to make a new breed; i do not have the time, etc, as a monk in a monastery. my duties prevent this..........

but i am just planning on maybe just using the best layers who also show the best health as breeders..................

thanks alot for the encouragement

 

[chickkrzi]

So JMC how is this working out for you? I'm sure everyone very interested in the outcome.

 

[itspebbl]

Have any sexlink+sexlink chicks hatched yet??? If so, please post pics!!!