Broody hens and lice/mites

[aart]

Aart, I read a lot of conflicting information on the internet, some from really respectable sources. There is a lot of different research, sometimes looking for different things or using different parameters. And a lot of times experts will just disagree. You get different opinions from experts in practically any field.

I’m lucky enough to have one of the top University Poultry Science departments in the country just up the road at the University of Arkansas. I’ve had the opportunity to learn a lot from their professors specializing in disease/medicine and poultry reproduction. That’s not to slight any of the other professors, it’s just those are the ones I’ve come into contact with. Both have bred prize winning show chickens and enjoy breeding chickens just for fun. They’ve played with backyard flocks since they were kids. They also work closely with the commercial chicken industry. Tyson donated enough money to that department to make it one of the top in the country. Tyson is headquartered here.

While they can have their own opinions, I think they strike a pretty good balance between commercial, show, and backyard flocks. They certainly have the experience. Since I’m not an expert in this field myself, I’ll go by my local expert. We normally agree on things but it looks like this is something we’ll just have to disagree on.

Or maybe it would be interesting to see if your professor is aware of the FARAD findings.

 

[centrarchid]

Sometimes it is better to have the professor types wade into discussion directly when they are referenced. That way they can put their resources into more complete light with respect to questions asked.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I had an interesting phone call with the professor. He basically said the only things now approved are some of the permethrins. Find one that is labeled for use on poultry. Not all are. They should have fairly short withdrawal times though some could be 30 days. See what you can find.

There are a couple of concerns with Sevin. If it gets in the human food chain there could be consequences. That is a fairly recent development. Also in certain parts of the country it’s not that effective, especially as a 5% powder. The 10% works much better but you can’t get that any more. So you are right Aart, Sevin is not currently approved. And Centrarchid you were right. I needed to call him directly.

I did ask about Sevin’s effect on the health of the chickens. If you use a lot of it often, it could harm the chickens. But if you don’t overdo it in frequency or amount it should not have any bad effects. Nchls School, you did no harm to your chickens by using it unless you really overdid it.

Something a bit scary, there is something in the works that will basically ban everything over the counter for poultry mites or lice. You are going to have to get a vet’s prescription even for a backyard flock. I’ll go off-label when I need something when that happens.

After that discussion I talked to the extension service’s horticultural expert about using Sevin in the garden. He said as long as you follow the label withdrawal times and the frequency of use it is still approved on vegetables. One interesting point, if you apply it as a powder and cannot not see it if you back up 5 to 6 feet you got it about right. If it looks like it snowed it will still work but that is way overkill and can cause environmental damage, killing things you don’t want to kill. The big problem with it is over-application. It doesn’t take much. Spraying might be a better application method in your garden than as a powder.

 

[nchls school]

I had an interesting phone call with the professor. He basically said the only things now approved are some of the permethrins. Find one that is labeled for use on poultry. Not all are. They should have fairly short withdrawal times though some could be 30 days. See what you can find.

There are a couple of concerns with Sevin. If it gets in the human food chain there could be consequences. That is a fairly recent development. Also in certain parts of the country it’s not that effective, especially as a 5% powder. The 10% works much better but you can’t get that any more. So you are right Aart, Sevin is not currently approved. And Centrarchid you were right. I needed to call him directly.

I did ask about Sevin’s effect on the health of the chickens. If you use a lot of it often, it could harm the chickens. But if you don’t overdo it in frequency or amount it should not have any bad effects. Nchls School, you did no harm to your chickens by using it unless you really overdid it. It always pays to be cautious. I used it sparingly and found many dead mites.

Something a bit scary, there is something in the works that will basically ban everything over the counter for poultry mites or lice. You are going to have to get a vet’s prescription even for a backyard flock. I’ll go off-label when I need something when that happens.

After that discussion I talked to the extension service’s horticultural expert about using Sevin in the garden. He said as long as you follow the label withdrawal times and the frequency of use it is still approved on vegetables. One interesting point, if you apply it as a powder and cannot not see it if you back up 5 to 6 feet you got it about right. If it looks like it snowed it will still work but that is way overkill and can cause environmental damage, killing things you don’t want to kill. The big problem with it is over-application. It doesn’t take much. Spraying might be a better application method in your garden than as a powder.

 

[aart]

I had an interesting phone call with the professor. He basically said the only things now approved are some of the permethrins. Find one that is labeled for use on poultry. Not all are. They should have fairly short withdrawal times though some could be 30 days. See what you can find.

There are a couple of concerns with Sevin. If it gets in the human food chain there could be consequences. That is a fairly recent development. Also in certain parts of the country it’s not that effective, especially as a 5% powder. The 10% works much better but you can’t get that any more. So you are right Aart, Sevin is not currently approved. And Centrarchid you were right. I needed to call him directly.

I did ask about Sevin’s effect on the health of the chickens. If you use a lot of it often, it could harm the chickens. But if you don’t overdo it in frequency or amount it should not have any bad effects. Nchls School, you did no harm to your chickens by using it unless you really overdid it.

Something a bit scary, there is something in the works that will basically ban everything over the counter for poultry mites or lice. You are going to have to get a vet’s prescription even for a backyard flock. I’ll go off-label when I need something when that happens.

After that discussion I talked to the extension service’s horticultural expert about using Sevin in the garden. He said as long as you follow the label withdrawal times and the frequency of use it is still approved on vegetables. One interesting point, if you apply it as a powder and cannot not see it if you back up 5 to 6 feet you got it about right. If it looks like it snowed it will still work but that is way overkill and can cause environmental damage, killing things you don’t want to kill. The big problem with it is over-application. It doesn’t take much. Spraying might be a better application method in your garden than as a powder.

Oh good, glad you followed up...I think I mentioned before that the lifetime withdrawal in poultry was a recent development.
I have also heard that a lot of meds are being discontinued as OTC.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Aart, I don’t want to beat this down too much but look at the dates of those studies this is based on, 1960’s through 1980’s. This is not new information. What’s changed is the way they look at things. They used to look at it that certain levels are safe, you know – dosage. Now any residue after a certain time is considered unsafe. That’s what I get from reading the write-up in my link in that other thread.

The trend is disturbing to me. What is the practical outcome? They are going to ban permethrins too so the only way you can treat mites and lice and follow the recommendations is to get a prescription from a vet. What is the vet going to prescribe if everything is banned? One of the banned substances, which with a prescription will be legal.

When that happens I’ll just go off-label, using what I can find and maybe looking at outdated info on the internet for dosage and withdrawal times as best I can. Or using what I know now. This stuff may become hard to get but I don’t know of any plans to ban them for use in the garden so I’ll look at a gardening store.

This is me talking, not the professor.

 

[aart]

Aart, I don’t want to beat this down too much but look at the dates of those studies this is based on, 1960’s through 1980’s. This is not new information. What’s changed is the way they look at things. They used to look at it that certain levels are safe, you know – dosage. Now any residue after a certain time is considered unsafe. That’s what I get from reading the write-up in my link in that other thread.

The trend is disturbing to me. What is the practical outcome? They are going to ban permethrins too so the only way you can treat mites and lice and follow the recommendations is to get a prescription from a vet. What is the vet going to prescribe if everything is banned? One of the banned substances, which with a prescription will be legal.

When that happens I’ll just go off-label, using what I can find and maybe looking at outdated info on the internet for dosage and withdrawal times as best I can. Or using what I know now. This stuff may become hard to get but I don’t know of any plans to ban them for use in the garden so I’ll look at a gardening store.

This is me talking, not the professor.

I think we all continue to learn,
and what seems fine and dandy in one decade eventually can show in the long term that it's not a particularly good idea,
as new evidence arises it can change old habits/rules/laws, etc.

Wide spread, prolific, and unthoughtful use of chemical pesticides, herbicides, fertilizers on our foods, the soils they grow in/on definitely fall into that category.
I am against using harsh chemicals to kill pest insects because also kills a lot of other insects and throws the whole ecological balance out of whack(Volterra Principle).
Not everyone thinks about it like that, but I do...and thus support the 'banning' of Sevin.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Permethrins fall into that category as much as Sevin does, some permethrins are just not yet banned for mites and lice on poultry. Supposedly that is coming. I made a special phone call to confirm that the ban is not in the works for use in the garden for Sevin and in my mind that’s where abuse is most likely to occur. Targeting a certain pest and using it appropriately is OK in my book, but overuse kills beneficial microbes in the soil as well as beneficial insects, same as permethrins and most other insecticides. BT gets a pass in my book because it is so specific in what it targets. Still, follow label directions and store it properly.

My thoughts on this are more of the order that something is being banned, not because it has been proven to be harmful but that there is some residue after a certain number of days. That’s why they have withdrawal periods. If this attitude prevails and carry over to other areas the repercussions are going to be huge. I’m not trying to argue for the use of Sevin, the 5% solution is ineffective in certain parts of the country so that’s enough to withdraw approval it for use on mites and lice. But the idea of banning something that has not been shown to cause harm is a major philosophical shift that just does not feel right to me. I know that is just my opinion, but it is my opinion.