brown/red sumatra

[raph]

I think that the sumatra's with brown/red hackles and saddle feathers look great and i think we should try get it to become standard. here is a picture of my bird called bruce this would be what im promoting, but the more people that like this colour the more chance of getting as a standard colour.
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[cubakid]

James Smith already has people working with him to get the bantams recognized. They have the color similar to brown red old English.

 

[nicalandia]

James Smith already has people working with him to get the bantams recognized. They have the color similar to brown red old English.

These birds "may" look Brown Red or based on the Birchen e allele(ER gold based s+)....But in reality this are undermelanized black sumatra, meaning they are based on the Extended Black e allele(E/E) just like Black sumatra are but ara lacking or are missing the melanizers need it to make them completely black...

this is how Brown Reds based on ER/ER should look like..





now can you keep breeding the birds that show lots of red hackles and saddles to look more like Brown Reds? yes, but I dont know if its possible to loos the Black shoulders for the Red/Orange shoulders found on True ER/ER brown reds...

 

[nicalandia]

A have a few pics of UnderMelanized(missing melanizers) E/E(Extended Black birds) and pics of Over melanized gold Birchen(ER s+ or BrownReds with extra melanizers)

Undermelanized Extended black males, take a good look at their black shoulders(usually E/e+ heterozygotes that were crossed back to e+)










Over melanized Birchen(extra malanizers, affecting Hackle and saddle feathers, but leaving the shoulders intact)

 

[nicalandia]

but what melanizers? there are many undocumented melanizers, some recessive, and some dominant that help turns a bird black. Extended black needing the least, ER birchen needing a few more... and wildtype and wheaten needing the most melanizers to fully melanized a bird..

this is actually how the Brassy Back OEG was created, they crossed BBR to self black birds and did F1 x F1 and some of those birds showed extra melanizers(yet keep the red/orange shoulders)

 

[cubakid]

Nicalandia, I did not mean to say the above bird is brown red, as it is lacking most the pattern. I just meant that it has already been done... And they are genetically brown red. The bird pictured looks like the red got outta Han in the black breeding pen.

 

[raph]

So do you think it would be passable to breed more brown Sumatra's.do you think that the cockerel i posted 1st cross this hen would make brown ones?

 

[nicalandia]

So do you think it would be passable to breed more brown Sumatra's.do you think that the cockerel i posted 1st cross this hen would make brown ones?

well since its a genetic trait. then you can pass it down if you want to breed for it. the issue will be that hens will be all black. I have a Melanized ER(Brown red) line where the males show hackle and shoulder gold color, but the saddle is melanized...BUT the females are all black. so if you breed your rooster to any of his sisters or doughters then yes you will be able to reproduce such color on males, but not on females,

 

[nicalandia]

The bird pictured looks like the red got outta Han in the black breeding pen.

the Red/gold didnt get out of hand. it was the melanizers that were not there to fully melanize the entire body of the sumatra rooster, they are Undermelanized

 

[Andrew Gordon]

Although rather old, I find this thread quite interesting since it strongly relates to a recent problem of mine.

Over here in Germany, there are three recognized colors for Sumatras: Black, partridge and black-red. Partridge appears to be quite old and is said to have emerged seemingly randomly in black flocks every now and then. These days, of course, it is selectively bred. Black-red emerged from the crossing with white-red Yokohamas after the Second World War, when good birds where rare.
Now, I have this young rooster, Iugurtha, which hatched from an egg by a trusted breeder who keeps seperated black and partridge flocks. As a chick, it displayed the usual down of the blacks, i.e. black back with light throat and belly; no confusion with partridge chicks possible. However, after three-and-a-half weeks, brown patterns began to emerge on his wings. This is what he looked like during that time:

At six weeks age, the colors would intensify and spread to hackle and chest:

This is him with four-and-a-half months old with red on hackles, shoulders, and saddle along with red patterns on the chest:

Can someone please help me unriddle the genetics at work here? He definitely is not partridge, considering his down as a chicklet and the lack of duckwing. Also, I guess he is not a cross between partridge and black (E/e+), since I have bred a few such crosses myself and they turn out all black, just as you would expect. I was hoping that for some reason he might be black-red. However, that colour seems somewhat of a mystery (the underlying Yokohama genetics are not fully understood, as far as I know). Also, on photos of black-red Sumatra by the overall german breeding association (here and here), the red is much darker and hardly extends to the shoulders, similar to the rooster shown in the opening post of this thread, which @nicalandia understands as undermelanized E/E. Then again, I do find quite a few Sumatra roosters resembling mine on videos (here at 1:33; 2:05 and 2:27) from older exhibitions. This also seems to resemble the pattern in @nicalandias first post to this thread showing an ER/ER. But I have no idea on how an ER/ER Sumatra might have emerged.