Bullying, Bathing, Runts, and Handling Hens

[chooks4life]

That does look egg bound to me. There are a few methods people use to deal with it, including the steaming treatment, lube, etc. I would think some olive oil injected up the vent with something soft and blunt (obviously) would be the best bet, maybe. There are various threads on the forum on dealing with egg bound hens. I'd recommend you try whatever you feel is the best way, as always.

The way she takes time to pant between breathing normally looks to me like she's contracting at that point. Obviously not working for her, if that's the correct diagnosis. Otherwise, she doesn't look sick to me, so that's good.

I've not actually had an egg bound chicken before, I've only seen that issue with people who feed their hens on pellets or crumble. I believe it's due to lack of raw oils in the diet, since pellets/crumble contain cooked oils which don't help. Kelp's supposed to treat most of the causes of it, and raw oils are supposed to handle the rest, but Levy also blames it on pellets which I've avoided whenever possible because of her belief on it. So far, so good...

If you've got that Levy book, she mentions a treatment which I'm not actually too keen on... Some of it sounds fine but the rest I'd leave for a serious emergency. She reckons to give an injection of olive oil up the vent, apply hot cloths (not burning hot of course) and after a few minutes try to move the egg with your fingertips. Then castor oil down the throat mixed with a small pinch of ground ginger, and try to break up the egg. :/ Personally there are a few things I will only try if it looks like I'll lose the hen otherwise! I hope your efforts with her go well. Best wishes.

 

[Farmer Viola]

Quote:
For the life of me I cannot feel the egg. I have just spent 20 minutes feeling around and from this post, there is a diagram of the location of the oviduct, where I suppose the egg should be stuck. I don't feel a mass there. I'm not wanting to press extra hard on her but I just can't find an egg where I think it "should" be.

I feel on her lower abdomen on the left side, closer to the breastbone, something hard and possibly round. Would an egg be that low and to the left? Could the hardness be something else?


Quote: Hah, which parts don't you recommend? I'm going to get castor oil, and I already have olive oil. I did read Levy's treatment for egg bound but without feeling an egg near the vent itself, I was hesitant to diagnose. I don't think breaking up the egg sounds like a good idea. I can do the oils and the ginger though.

Right now she has been in a warm water/hot cloth soak for the last 20 minutes while I felt/massaged to no change, yet.

edit: while in the bath, she was panting heavily; after taking her out, she has completely stopped. I can't really feel the mass on the left anymore, did it move? She *was* the one who laid the large double yolker one time

It's 6pm here, usually they are winding down at 7 and sleeping at 8. Maybe it's too late now for egglaying? Should I do the oils early in the morning? (I will have castor but not until about 7...) I'm blow drying her now to make sure she isn't cold, and rotating the warm compress on/off still. should I let her eat before bed or continue fast until morning?

what do you think about a heating pad under her blanket in her ICU box? too warm for too long?

 

[chooks4life]

I think what you're feeling lower down is the stomach, but I could be wrong; it could be the egg. I was wondering if she was the double yolker. I did breed that out of my hens pretty quickly after watching the near-misses they had trying to get them out. The parts of the Levy treatment I'm not too keen on is the breaking of the egg inside the hen... But it looks like you my end up having to do that. If it's a double yolker chances are the shell is pretty thin, so that's a plus.

Strange on that blog that the woman mentions not using olive oil in case it goes rancid, then mentions they'll die within 48 hours if they don't get the egg out... What olive oil would go rancid in that time period? Methinks she's not using raw olive oil, since cold pressed oil just absorbs straight into the body. But I agree, KY would be better if you have it. The less absorbs in, the better for quicker removal.

I think she's wrong about the time period but it is best to hurry rather than wait. Mine have deliberately retained an egg for over a day if prevented from getting to a nest they wanted, not just once but many times.

I don't have any firsthand experience with this so definitely go with what you feel is best as always... Personally I would let her eat, put a warm pad under her or just make sure she sleeps on the nest, and give her the castor oil. The sooner this is fixed, the better.

Best wishes, hope she passes it in time.

 

[Farmer Viola]

Quote: Oh good! That's encouraging. The bath seemed to wear her out last night, she was panting/contracting the whole time, so afterwards she was able to stop completely, and was very tired. I covered her box and let her rest, then woke up extra early this morning to tend to her.

This morning she got a hot towel compress, olive oiled vent, and ginger/castor oil in the beak. I put her back in her cleaned indoor ICU nest, with new water and I added a bowl of layer crumble and kelp. I'm going to let her eat a little bit before I try the bath again, she will need her strength.

Now, she is panting off and on, sometimes closing her eyes and drifting to sleep when it stops, standing up (edit: wings hanging down slack). She doesn't make very many complaining noises, in fact I think she only complains when I leave her alone. I don't feel a bulging egg out her backside. But I have tried to feel for eggs about-to-be-laid in healthy hens, and I have never felt it. I'm talking, bird is in the nest, I'm squeezing their bums, I feel no egg. Most likely, I just don't know where to feel..

 

[chooks4life]

Poor girl. You may want to try to break the egg if you can feel it. Have you tried feeling inside her? It's taking a long time to shift, she sounds weak. I hope you don't lose her. It must be very stuck. I've tried to think of anything I know of that it could be asides from egg binding and I can't think of anything else. If it were some kind of injury or illness she'd still have laid the due egg... So it must be that. I think you may have to take more drastic measures.

There's a good chance the egg is stuck too high up for you to feel. Despite what the diagram looks like, the shell gland is deeper inside them. The olive oil or KY wouldn't reach up that high without possibly a bit of help. This looks more and more like a case where the egg needs breaking. Sorry you're going through this! It's a lot at an early stage.

Best wishes.

 

[Farmer Viola]

Okay.. I just put my finger all the way in, up to the last knuckle, I seriously feel no egg in there.

edit: i wonder if she could have eaten something toxic or poisonous outside? change in bedding from cedar to pine couldn't have hurt right?!

 

[chooks4life]

If it was an impaction from eating the shavings or bark or whatever you ought to feel that in her crop, and she ought not to be pooping normally. If her stomach was blocked, she shouldn't be pooping normally either, and the egg-bound position and contraction-style panting symptoms I have never seen correspond with any crop or gizzard bound symptoms in my chickens. They never showed anything like the symptoms she is, they're classical egg bound behaviors. But this could be a rare case that is atypical perhaps. Is she still pooping normally?

I am pretty sure it is a blocked shell gland but if it is so deep you can't even feel it then I don't know what you can do. As a last resort you could try a vet, surgery, or googling the symptoms... I have heard of surgery for this before but it sounds too risky for an amateur to do. I have also heard of crushing the egg from outside the chicken but that is likewise risky for obvious reasons. Desperate measures.

Raspberry leaf tea is known to cause strong contractions of the uterus, so if you have any I would give her a few sips and see if that helps. It can cause a normal pregnancy to abort if too much is had, sometimes.

 

[Farmer Viola]

Her poops were normal yesterday, today I started the castor oil and since then they have been runny. It's a laxative, I'm guessing that's normal? She's also getting primarily liquids, and eating only a very small amount as she sees fit. I put kelp and fennel in her crumbles to give her some green.. gave electrolytes (like 1ml).. made her some scrambled egg but she's not very interested, she did have 2 small bites though.

yesterday's poops


Quote: wow.. how could it be so deep? and wouldn't the following day's eggs start to back up, resulting in a few eggs in there - pushing their way out?? could my finger have gone in the wrong hole (poop not egg?) I just basically went straight back towards her spine (where I think it should be), not down toward the intestines but *** do I know? Not paying for a vet, not confident enough to do surgery.. maybe post mortem but alive? slkjdflskdjfkld


Quote: I don't, but I seem to recall Levy mentioning something else to have the same effect.. I'll see if I can find it

 

[chooks4life]

Her poops look normal, especially given the usage of laxatives. You'd be able to tell if her crop's blocked and that wouldn't cause her hunching in the typical egg bound pose, and if it were her stomach she'd likely not be eating at all and it takes a lot longer to kill, plus they show toxification and unhealthy poops in the process. I'd expect she would have laid the egg due the other day if it was stomach blockage, and she'd be walking around acting normal if jittery. That pose would not be occurring in that case either. BUT this is just my experience and something else may be wrong of which I have no knowledge. I'm no expert. You could try posting in the normal forums with the video link and see if anyone has some suggestions for you.

I doubt she has any shelled eggs pushing up, since it seems the shell glad is occupied; there would possibly be yolks and whites in membranes awaiting their turn though. It may be best to stop feeding her protein and let her reabsorb any eggs she can instead. I would take her off kelp and layer which both encourage egg production, since it's taking her too long to lay.

About the anatomy, I think if it were the intestines you felt they would have been probably noticeably tighter than the laying canal. I haven't had an egg bound hen before so my practical experience here is nil. I'm sorry.

 

[Farmer Viola]

Her poops look normal, especially given the usage of laxatives. You'd be able to tell if her crop's blocked and that wouldn't cause her hunching in the typical egg bound pose, and if it were her stomach she'd likely not be eating at all and it takes a lot longer to kill, plus they show toxification and unhealthy poops in the process. I'd expect she would have laid the egg due the other day if it was stomach blockage, and she'd be walking around acting normal if jittery. That pose would not be occurring in that case either. BUT this is just my experience and something else may be wrong of which I have no knowledge. I'm no expert. You could try posting in the normal forums with the video link and see if anyone has some suggestions for you.

I doubt she has any shelled eggs pushing up, since it seems the shell glad is occupied; there would possibly be yolks and whites in membranes awaiting their turn though. It may be best to stop feeding her protein and let her reabsorb any eggs she can instead. I would take her off kelp and layer which both encourage egg production, since it's taking her too long to lay.

About the anatomy, I think if it were the intestines you felt they would have been probably noticeably tighter than the laying canal. I haven't had an egg bound hen before so my practical experience here is nil. I'm sorry.

Sorry, those poops were pre-laxatives (Monday). Today[tue], she has been pooping runny as I expected she would, but I threw that poopy towel in the wash without a photo... actually.. here's one she JUST pooped:



Her crop is empty, I would definitely be able to tell if it were impacted/full/blocked. That one I *do* know where to feel She can walk a few steps if she needs (mostly when I'm squeezing her rear), but she is content to stand quite still.

I see what you mean about the shell gland being occupied.. would I have reached the shell creating area with my finger? 10-4 on the protein, food has been removed.

Here is a photo of her taken just now. Her tail is up! Yet she is panting. Normally, the lid on her container is halfway on, except at night when the lid is mostly on - just a crack.




PLEASE don't apologize!!!! You have been so helpful and have taught me so much, I am so grateful to you, thank you a hundred times over. Your experience does make you an expert, whether or not you'll admit it, but I certainly don't expect you to have every answer to every single thing. You've given me information based on your experience and that is WELL beyond what I have on my own. Without your years of experience to solidify my direction, I often can't even diagnose, because I am considering 2-10 different problems.

I don't have raspberry leaves. I *might* be able to get them. I may also be able to get essential oil of rose - same effect. For now, I am brewing a chamomile, rose, thyme tea. For female ailments, and (thyme) diseased uterus.