Calcium needs changing? Or is it feed changing?

[Gypsi]

excellent ideas. They need a new waterer. I wouldn't describe Texas as an area that gets wet - we are in a major drought - and their feed is kept in the coop (they sleep on a roost in the run unless it is really cold), and the feed stays clean and dry. I give them a scoop (about 2 cups) of layena on the sand floor of the run in the morning, other than that they go in the coop to eat, and in the nest boxes to lay.

Oatmeal (their favorite) seemed to be the start of the soft egg shells. They haven't had any for a treat in over a month, and eggs are generally not falling apart in my hand, but not as hard as the dozen I bought at the store last week either.

Heat may be affecting calcium metabolism, don't have time to research it. I know in humans, without vitamin D, we don't absorb calcium, it simply passes through. My girls aren't short on sunlight unless they choose to stay in the shade - admittedly this summer was a pretty shady time period, the sun was simply too hot, many days over 105, one hen died of heat stroke probably on a day at 108, right after I let them out of the coop to go play in the mud under the tree where I had the hose.

Pretty much everything was fine until the heat came on, but I had seen a note on my feed store's website about a change in layena's formula, to try to get more omega 3 in the eggs around that time - just re-checked, nope, I'm buying regular layena...


I'll try changing their waterer, worming and the acv. Change the sand in the run, bedding in the nest boxes. Dust with de for mites should work? Don't know that they have them, don't know that they don't.

What do I worm chickens with? Or will the acv do the trick?

Thank you so much.
Gypsi

 

[Gypsi]

It is possible they are all moulting as well, all my birds are the same age. I can't tell whose egg is whose. treats are round up assistants. Saved them from a golden eagle 2 days ago. Not much, just a slice of watermelon with egg shells (the eggshells having been added when the eggs got soft), a few black sunflower seeds, or yogurt / banana, just a something to get them in the pen.

I was thinking of starting a mealy worm colony. When I lost my bee hive at the end of july, i fed the wax worms, larva and pupae, to the hens, and got 6 eggs a day for 3 days with nice hard shells. Is that a clue?

 

[Fred's Hens]

This conversation has gone well. The quick and over simplistic response seems to always be: "More Oyster Shells". Shocking, I know, but I've kept hens, on and off, for almost 55 years and have once purchased oyster. Not opposed to it, just never saw the need. I do feed back crushed egg shells and have occasionally used calcium carbonate pellets. (not dolomite. The magnesium in dolomite will interfere with calcium uptake, as I understand it.)

Layer formulas have science based, balanced calcium proportions mixed in already. If one begins to have soft shell issues, one needs to re-examine one's entire program. Health and age of the hens is number one. Worms, parasites, water, stress, heat, seasonal light changes, and moulting all factor into this. Calcium is complicated because other required factors, such as needed Vitamin D come into play. Other things resist calcium uptake.

Over indulging on favorite foods is oft times an issue. Sometimes, there is simply poor genetics involved as the hen ages.

As to my post earlier, you've done well to look beyond the over simplistic. Many times, there is more that is involved.

 

[Chris09]

Most people immediately think that Oyster shell grit is what a hen needs if she is laying soft shelled eggs but a dietary deficiency can also be the cause of a ‘soft' shelled egg.
Chickens need grit to grind their food down and calcium to form their egg shells, they also need a correct level of protein in their diet as well as minerals and various other vitamins.

A few things to look at when you are getting soft eggs are (remember too much of any one of these ingredients can affect egg quality just the same as too little) --

Protein, Adequate levels of lysine and methionine is need to produce good egg shells. When pullets begin laying, there is an increase in protein, vitamin and mineral requirements per day due to deposition in the egg. If dietary protein is too low or the amino acid requirements are not met, poor egg production and hatchability will occur.

Calcium, The egg shell is composed primarily of calcium carbonate. The pullet's requirement for calciumis relatively low during the growing period, but when the first eggs are produced, the need is increased at least four times, with practically all of the increase being used for the productionof eggshells. Inadequate calcium consumption will result in decreased egg production and loweregg shell quality.
Hens store calcium in medullary bone, a specialized bone capable of rapid calcium turnover. As calcium stores are depleted, bones become brittle. In severe cases, hens are unable tostand. The condition is known as caged-layer fatigue. Birds on the ground or on litter floorsrecycle calcium and phosphorus through consumption of feces, and do not have caged-layer fatigue.
Calcium can be supplied in the diet as either ground limestone or oyster shell. Particlesize affects calcium availability. Usually the larger the particle size, the longer the particlewill be retained in the upper digestive tract. This means that the larger particles of thecalcium source are released more slowly, and this may be important for the continuity of shellformation, especially in the dark period when birds do not ordinarily eat.
Periodically, dolomitic limestone is offered to the feed industry. However, dolomitic limestone(which is used in the steel industry) should never be used in poultry diets. Dolomitic limestonecontains at least 10% magnesium, and this complexes with calcium or competes with calcium forabsorption sites in the intestines. The consequence of feeding dolomitic limestone is inducedcalcium deficiency.
Young birds should not be fed a high calcium layer diet because the calcium/phosphorus ratiowill be unbalanced, resulting in increased morbidity or mortality.

Phosphorus, The nutritional role of phosphorus is closely related to that of calcium. Both are constituentsof bone. The ratio of dietary calcium to phosphorus affects the absorption of both these elements;an excess of either one impedes absorption and can reduce egg production, shell quality and/orhatchability.
In addition to its function in bone, phosphorus plays a primary role in carbohydrate metabolism,is active in fat metabolism, and helps to regulate the acid-base balance of the body

Vitamin D, Vitamin D is required for normal calcium absorption and utilization. If inadequate levelsof vitamin D are fed, induced calcium deficiency quickly results and egg production decreases.
Feed grade vitamin D comes in two forms, D2 and D3. In most animals, both are equally potent. In birds, however, D3 is substantially more active than D2. In poultry diets, therefore, vitamin D must be supplied in the form of D3.

Magnesium, Magnesium is needed for healthy bones, proper nervous system functioning, and energy metabolism.

Fat, Dietary fat is a source of energy and of linoleic acid, an essential fatty acid. A deficiency of linoleic acid will adversely affect egg production. Dietary fats also serve as "carriers"of fat-soluble vitamins, and some fat is necessary for absorption of vitamins. In fact, impairmentof the absorption of fat-soluble vitamins (A, D, E, and K) is the most serious consequence of a dietary deficiency of fat.

The general make up of a egg shell is --
Calcium carbonate.............................................................:94-97%
Phosphorus.......................................................................:0.3%
Magnesium........................................................................:0.2%
Sodium, Potassium, Manganese, Iron and Copper............:traces
Organic matter...................................................................:< 2%

(* Note -- With Proteins it is easier to break down proteins that are animal based than plant based. On a second note watch high levels of linseed "Flax seed". Too much Flax Seed can cause health problems in chickens. Overfeeding flaxseed can cause problems for your hens because flax seed contains sticky compounds that stop the hen from digesting some of the nutrients in her diet. Flax seed also contains a compound called linoline that may increase the birds' vitamin requirements. Feeding too much flax seed can also cause production drops, small egg size, reduced body weight gain and thin egg shells. *)

Chris

 

[MIKE555444]

I guess my question would be is ALL of the eggs really that thin? If you are getting a small quantity of eggs that are soft then it could be an internal problem with a hen or two that cannot be fixed with more calcium. If you can locate the culpret then separate her or the other hens you might avoid getting some egg eaters while you decide if culling is necessary. If you can identify and segregate the thin egg layers you could also increase only their calcium and see if the problem can be fixed.

 

[Gypsi]

It is not all of the eggs that are thin. I saw fewer thin shelled eggs after one of my barred rocks died in late July. I still have one barred rock. But it would be very difficult at this time to separate them out, as I also have dogs, and bees, and there are coyotes, hawks and even a golden eagle around.

So I guess I'm sticking with fresh sand in the run (seems to harden the shells, don't know why, although bringing it out to the run is not fun.)

Fresh straw in the nest boxes. And this year, it will be homegrown overgrown grass, where my watermelon soaker hose grew me 3 ft grass. I pulled it, dried it and bundled it. And DE in the nest boxes for mite prevention.

ACV in the water, and a clean waterer.

Layena, cut treats to bare minimum (what it takes to pen them.) They are only loose in the yard a couple of hours a day, since I can't supervise them thoroughly, and I do have hawks and now an eagle around.

Thank you for the detailed information. I do not feed flax seed to the birds, it is too expensive to even feed myself very much.

Gypsi

 

[hannakat]

Quote:
Come join us at "Mealworm Farming" to get ideas and encouragment! It's easy and very rewarding..chickadees LOVE mealworms!

 

[Gypsi]

Well for now, they have a new clean waterer, better elevated to keep it clean, with acv in it, and food, and fresh straw dusted with DE. Best I could manage for today. And their treat was yogurt again, just about 1/3 cup between the 5 of them, with a ripe banana and eggshells. I got 3 hard shelled eggs today. Don't know if it is the calcium, the probiotics or the protein, but yogurt is good.

Gypsi

 

[Gypsi]

Update:

No treats, just Layena for the last couple of days. ACV in their water. Yesterday, and today, got 2 good eggs, one with a paperthin shell that cracked in the nest. They are molting, not bare of feathers, but a fair number of feathers on the run floor.

So I dusted them with sevin. Not well either, I think it takes 2 people to get a hen in a bag, but I bought a shaker can and everyone got some on them, the run is a bit liberally dusted from the misses. The one with the bald patch on the head definitely got her head done.

I got them fresh food after, and mostly avoided their feeding areas and water. I can change the sand in the run within a day or 2. Their favorite dusting area has sevin in it.

How long do I have to throw away eggs? I gave them watermelon with crushed eggshells and yogurt in the center this afternoon. Usually gets me a day of hard shell eggs.

Gypsi

 

[CluckCluck18]

I learned that this summer, too. It was so hot that the girls ate alot less feed.....we have organic. I had to cut back on treats and started to add ground up calcium to the feed. Also once per month for 3 days when I give my Vermex for worm prophylaxis I've been adding cod liver oil. I give it to them in whole wheat bread soaked in butter milk and they gobble it up. I've been doing that all summer and no more soft shelled eggs. Give it a try!