Calcium Question

[Wyorp Rock]

Indeed, thank you. One more question...I got the calcium citrate however it states 2 tablets equally 1 serving of 600 mg... So does that mean I would give her both (2 tablets)?

It's as I thought. You need to ignore the serving size. Your hen needs one tablet. That's how much is in one of those pills in that bottle. The serving size suggestion is only for humans, and it isn't based on anything other than to sell more of the product.

Let me explain further. Supplement manufacturers are required by law to state clearly on the front of the label what the strength of each pill is. In this bottle the label says it's 630mg. Now, all bets are off when they get to printing the back label. they can say what they want. Most supplement manufacturers will "suggest" you take twice or three times the amount a human body really needs. Why? To make more profit, of course. That's the reason they're manufacturing the supplement. In fact, too much calcium is very hard on the kidneys, animal or human. Why they are allowed to get away with suggesting so much is another whole discussion.

A hen in reproductive crisis needs around 600mg per day as long as she's in crisis. As soon as the crisis ends, unless thin shell or shell-less eggs are a pattern, no more calcium tablets should be given. If there's evidence the crisis was caused by poor calcium levels, then we continue giving the calcium tablets for another week or two. Kidney stones can result with too much calcium over a long period.

If I may, I read that it would take 2 tablets to equal 630mg as well.

I believe I've been reading my bottles wrong!! I grabbed my bottle of Equate Calcium Citrate and it also says 630mg PER SERVING!!
On the back a "SERVING" is 2 tablets, so this means that only 1tablet would equal 315mg Calcium Carbonate.
So I looked at Vitamin E I usually recommend to folks - "1 Serving/Softgel" is 400IU (180mg), so I think we must look at how many tablets are needed for each supplement we suggest.
I certainly think I've made a mistake in reading the labels, so I need to carefully go back through what I have and make corrections where needed. And of course, keep all these things in mind going forward, looking it up each time to make sure of the product info.

One good thing, it seems that most like me have given 1 Calcium tablet to a hen that was in crisis and it was helpful, so perhaps 315mg "extra" has been sufficient.

 

[azygous]

YIKES that is wildly incorrect. If the bottle says a serving is 630 and is two pills, each pill is 315. Now, if the label says one serving is 300% of your daily need of calcium, then yes, the serving itself is probably an oversell for a human looking to supplement their calcium.

Okay, you are correct and so is our OP. Azygous is wrong.

But I learned something I didn't know before. Here's where I found this info. https://www.health.ny.gov/publications/1980/index.htm. I scrolled down to the paragraph that says, "How to read the label on the supplement bottle". And it verifies exactly what both of you say.

So, the issue at hand remains what is the proper dosage for a hen in reproductive distress. And that remains one tablet from a bottle that states 600-630mg. We are being less than accurate in our directions to thread posters in telling them to use a 600mg tablet, but most people do not read labels, myself included (except to find out if there's milk in it that will set off my lactose intolerance). We are directing people to choose the calcium supplement that is at least 600mg, but we do specify to give one tablet per day.

 

[azygous]

Why do I feel the world is getting more complicated every day?

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Okay, you are correct and so is our OP. Azygous is wrong.

But I learned something I didn't know before. Here's where I found this info. https://www.health.ny.gov/publications/1980/index.htm. I scrolled down to the paragraph that says, "How to read the label on the supplement bottle". And it verifies exactly what both of you say.

So, the issue at hand remains what is the proper dosage for a hen in reproductive distress. And that remains one tablet from a bottle that states 600-630mg. We are being less than accurate in our directions to thread posters in telling them to use a 600mg tablet, but most people do not read labels, myself included (except to find out if there's milk in it that will set off my lactose intolerance). We are directing people to choose the calcium supplement that is at least 600mg, but we do specify to give one tablet per day.

Why do I feel the world is getting more complicated every day?

Oh my, it IS getting more complicated every day!

I'm going to have to look at the label for supplements I take to see what the "serving" is, for crying out loud, who knows, maybe I need to take MORE than I have been or none at all!

You are correct, so what IS the amount a hen needs when in crisis. I like you have been suggesting 600mg daily, but 1 Tablet. So...is 315mg +/- sufficient then or should a tablet be given twice a day to get to 600mg.
And while we're at it, where are we getting the 600mg from? I read that a (commercial) laying hen should have 4-5g/hen daily, of course this *should* be in her feed. This is the number for Commercial Hens like White Leghorns.
SO! What's the crisis dosage - which is short term, just for a few days? 300-600mg seems reasonable to me, but it is "correct"?

Ahhhh...let's see if @coach723 or @Eggcessive have any info on the correct amount.

 

[azygous]

No, don't go making yourself crazy reading labels. They are irrelevant to the purpose to which we are applying the calcium. It's been working just fine for the dozens of hens we've managed to bring through these crises here on BYC over the years. Maybe way more than dozens if the information has been transmitted beyond this site.

Here is the genesis of the calcium therapy we've been suggesting for hens with any sort of laying issue from thin shell eggs to egg binding to prolapse, at least as far as I became invested in it.

At least ten years ago, probably more, I made a thread about a hen that was laying thin shell eggs. @TwoCrows responded and told me to give my hen a daily dose of a calcium supplement until the shells improved. Maybe she can chime in if she recalls what she said in her suggestion. Or maybe that thread of mine is in the long history of my threads. Be my guest and go look.

So I rustled up my bottle of calcium tablets and gave my hen one, then another each day until the eggs improved. After that, I experimented on my own with the "petite" bottle with a 400mg dose and found over time that it didn't work as well as the 630mg bottle. I quit using the petites because the dose was not as effective.

Over the years, I found myself dealing with hens with all sorts of reproductive issues and some of them were hideous. If anyone keeps chickens for a lot of years, this will likely happen to most. It's the odds. Anyway, I learned what works and what doesn't and began sharing what works with people coming here with these issues. None of this was in the least bit scientific, although I began to educate myself on the role of calcium in the chicken reproductive system. It was sort of like getting a recipe from your mom who got it from her mom with instructions to use a hand full of flour, a palm of sugar, a pinch of salt, and enough water to make it all stick together. (Then cookbook editors got a hold of the recipes and made it into something more scientific.)

So, I'm still going to tell people to get the 630mg bottle and to give the hen one tablet a day until the eggs come out normal. Heck, it works for me. I do not need to be any crazier than I already am.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Well said! I too have found that giving 1 tablet from the bottle has worked well for me too. It's what I give my own hens, I have a bottle in my cabinet just for them!

I like you, have told many people to give the 1 tablet and yes, it has worked for them too, so I agree that the suggestion of 1 tablet is the way to go.

Thanks Carol

No, don't go making yourself crazy reading labels. They are irrelevant to the purpose to which we are applying the calcium. It's been working just fine for the dozens of hens we've managed to bring through these crises here on BYC over the years. Maybe way more than dozens if the information has been transmitted beyond this site.

Here is the genesis of the calcium therapy we've been suggesting for hens with any sort of laying issue from thin shell eggs to egg binding to prolapse, at least as far as I became invested in it.

At least ten years ago, probably more, I made a thread about a hen that was laying thin shell eggs. @TwoCrows responded and told me to give my hen a daily dose of a calcium supplement until the shells improved. Maybe she can chime in if she recalls what she said in her suggestion. Or maybe that thread of mine is in the long history of my threads. Be my guest and go look.

So I rustled up my bottle of calcium tablets and gave my hen one, then another each day until the eggs improved. After that, I experimented on my own with the "petite" bottle with a 400mg dose and found over time that it didn't work as well as the 630mg bottle. I quit using the petites because the dose was not as effective.

Over the years, I found myself dealing with hens with all sorts of reproductive issues and some of them were hideous. If anyone keeps chickens for a lot of years, this will likely happen to most. It's the odds. Anyway, I learned what works and what doesn't and began sharing what works with people coming here with these issues. None of this was in the least bit scientific, although I began to educate myself on the role of calcium in the chicken reproductive system. It was sort of like getting a recipe from your mom who got it from her mom with instructions to use a hand full of flour, a palm of sugar, a pinch of salt, and enough water to make it all stick together. (Then cookbook editors got a hold of the recipes and made it into something more scientific.)

So, I'm still going to tell people to get the 630mg bottle and to give the hen one tablet a day until the eggs come out normal. Heck, it works for me. I do not need to be any crazier than I already am.

 

[azygous]

I just made a thread on this subject. https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...-in-each-tablet-and-how-much-to-give.1606610/

 

[coach723]

This is probably the best, most detailed, instructions on dealing with an egg bound bird I've found:
https://inquisitivevet.com/birdeggbinding/
But, as with most veterinary sites, they use calcium gluconate injection. This site says 5-10 mg/kg every every 3 - 6 hours intramuscular.
Plumbs says 50 - 100 mg/kg intravenously, slowly, of calcium gluconate, and to dilute and inject IM if a vein can't be found.
I've no idea how to convert the amount of calcium gluconate to calcium citrate, and absorption would be different. Both doses above are wildly different, but suggest that higher amounts for short periods of time are not likely to be a huge problem. Since egg binding is fatal if not rectified, trying is better than not trying in my book.
I will have to go check my bottles labels carefully, but I THINK I generally give in the range of 400 to 800 mg, depending on the size of the bird, of calcium citrate +D.

 

[azygous]

Calcium citrate has approximately twice as much elemental calcium as calcium gluconate. I'm sure the gluconate vets use is formulated to be effective. When calcium is given by a vet for egg biding, oxytocin is also sometimes given with it. The two interact together by producing strong contractions.

 

[azygous]

Yes, please let us know what those bottles say @coach723. This has become quite the confusing issue overnight. I spent the night making that thread on it instead of sleeping.