Can’t afford rising feed prices

[nuthatched]

Experience has proved otherwise, and you mix it in wet feed.

Diatomaceous Earth is completely useless when dampened, it typically says so on the package. It has to be dry to work, the inside of an animal is rather damp. You can even look that up on any de manufacturers website.

You've gotten good Info from this thread, 1. Switch to a better feeder instead of bins. 2 get more productive breeds, such as leghorn or production breeds, brahmas and marans aren't great at laying. Supplement sprouted grains for a cheap snack.

 

[nuthatched]

.......For future note: for anyone else:
(WIP, I'm researching for an article)
Because DE, (also pumpkin seeds, cayenne, chewing tobacco, etc though I'm still researching them) are marketed as feed supplements rather than medicine, they need to prove only that it's safe, they do not have to prove that it's effective. ln fact, very few of them offer supporting data documenting any antiparasitic effect. When parasitologists have tested some of these products, they have rarely found convincing results.
The search for a more natural source of safe 'medications' is a good one and should be encouraged, many of to-days drugs are synthesized/concentrated versions of products found in nature. However, a common misconception that natural is always safe/ healthy, is misguided at best as Pit viper venom is natural and organic and will kill you in a matter of minutes.
The working theory for de for internal parasites is that if it's ingested, it is expelled in the droppings along with parasitic eggs, and as the droppings dry, the de retains it effectiveness and dries out the parasitic eggs, keeping the animal from re ingesting them, keeping the internal parasitic load manageable and also keeping the animal and you from breathing it as much. It does sound reasonable, but that doesn't make it true.
For it to work, the target must be in a completely dry environment, have an exoskeleton, or some sort of 'skin'. Every website or brand of de states that the product is ineffective for pest control when wet.
Every scientific study I've found on it has either ( a large majority) inconclusive results (no measurable difference between untreated and de treated groups) or found de treated groups to have significantly heavier worm loads than medicated groups. Only 3 studies (in sheep) that I've found so far, concluded that animals treated with de had a slightly less concentrated worm egg load per gram of fecal matter than the control (untreated) group, but the treated animals were 'poorly fleshed'.
Quote:
A number of people strongly believe that DE also has an antiparasitic effect when administered orally. However, I know of several studies that have evaluated the effects of DE on intestinal worms. Unfortunately, none of these have found that DE has any impact on internal parasites.

My qualified opinion is that physical damage to the parasites is unlikely to occur within the intestine of the horse. The worms and their larvae are very small, often too small to be seen with the naked eye. Infective larvae are very hardy and survive the grinding teeth as well as the stomach acids before reaching the intestine. By the time an oral dose of DE reaches the gut, it will be so diluted in the ingesta that the chances of individual particles encountering a parasite would be very small.

If the sharp particles really were present in numbers sufficient to cut the parasites, one would also expect them to cause lesions in the mucosal membranes of the horse. Furthermore, all horses ingest soil and sand, which also can have sharp edges, but we don’t see any reduction of parasite loads in response. All in all, there are no sound biological reasons to expect DE to have an antiparasitic effect—and this is supported by research.

Some have suggested that DE might be effective at disrupting parasitic larvae within the fecal pile on pasture. But, again, a number of my colleagues evaluated this hypothesis in controlled studies, and they found no such effect.
As scientists we take every opportunity to evaluate new possible remedies that can help reduce parasite loads in our horses. A few of these have some potential, but the majority have not worked well. At University of Kentucky, we are currently doing research with a couple of new treatment methods, and there is some promise. Many plants contain antiparasitic substances, but it has proven difficult to extract these and feed them in sufficiently high concentrations to the horses for them to have an effect. Many fungi also produce antiparasitic compounds. In fact, the most widely used dewormer, ivermectin, is actually produced by a fungus. So chances are good that there is an effective dewormer out there that just has not yet been discovered. Unfortunately, diatomaceous earth is not in this category, and we discourage horse owners from relying on it for parasite control.

IMO, from a researchers standpoint, 87% of my research concluded that it is ineffective in this use entirely, 10% concluded that it's better than nothing (minimal effectiveness) and 3% showed significant effectiveness, with a caveat or side effects. (slow weight gain, poorly fleshed com paired to untreated group) Respiratory scarring is also a issue but I'm still gathering data.
Given, most of these studies are on horses, sheep/goats and cattle but I see no reason why it would only work on certain animals and not others. But I'm still sifting through studies, we'll see how it pans out.
De does have good levels of trace minerals, however, it might be easier to dose with other means.
However, all poultry keepers should treat their flocks as they see fit!
Thank you!

Spoiler: Sources

Effects of fossil shell flour supplementation on heat tolerance of dohne merino rams Lwazi Mwandaa, Olusegun O Ikusikaa,b,⁎, Conference T Mpenduloa, Anthony I Okohb,c

Quotes by Martin K. Nielsen, DVM, PhD, DEVPC, DACVM
M.H. Gluck Equine Research Center
University of Kentucky
Lexington, Kentucky
found at https://equusmagazine.com/horse-care/diatomaceous-earth-dewormer-15880/

https://the-chicken-chick.com/raising-chickens-naturally-diatomaceous/

THE EFFECT OF DIFFERENT INCLUSION LEVELS OF DIATOMACEOUS EARTH IN FEEDLOT DIETS ON THE PERFORMANCE OF LAMBS A.T. Nkwana1,2, J.H. Hoon1# & P.J. Fourie2 1 Grootfontein Agricultural Development Institute, Private Bag X529, Middelburg (EC), 5900 2 Department of Agriculture, Central University of Technology, Private Bag X20539, Bloemfontein, 9300

Köster, H., 2010. Diatomite in animal feeds. Animate Animal Health.

McLean, B., Frost, D., Evans, E., Clarke, A. & Griffiths, B., 2005. The inclusion of diatomaceous earth in the diet of grazing ruminants and its effect on gastrointestinal parasite burdens. In: International Scientific Conference on Organic Agriculture, Adelaide, Australia, 277-280.

The Real Dirt on Diatomaceous Earth Used For Worming Bison
Murray Woodbury DVM, MSc, Associate Professer and Research Chair, Specialized Livestock Research and Production, Dept. of Large Animal Clinical Studies, Western College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Saskatchewan.

Effect of diatomaceous earth as an anthelmintic treatment on internal parasites and feedlot performance on beef steers.
M. I Fernandes, B.W Woodward and B. E Stromberg
Cambridge University Press, Sep, 2. 2010

Deutschlander, D. 1993. Evaluating diatomaceous earth as a wormer for sheep and cattle. In Greenbook '93, p. 37. Energy and Sustainable Agriculture Program, Minnesota Department of Agriculture, St Paul.

Gregory, B., Mulumebet, W. & Mohamed, A., 2009. The effects of diatomaceous earth on parasite-infected goats. Bull. Georg. Natl. Acad. Sci. (3)1, 129-135.

Cox, D. D. and Todd, A. C. 1962. Survey of gastrointestinal parasitism in Wisconsin dairy cattle, journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 141: 706–709

Osweiler, G.D. & Carson, T.L., 1997. Evaluation of diatomaceous earth as an adjunct to sheep parasite control in organic farming. Leopold Center Completed Grant Reports, 102.

Moore, G.A., A.M. Zajac, C.D. Thatcher, D. Notter and S. Umberger. 1995. Use of diatomaceous earth in the control of internal parasites of grazing lambs. Proceedings of the American Association of Veterinary Parasitologists meeting. 40:66-67.

Bernard et al. (2009) The Effects of Diatomaceous Earth on Parasite Infected Goats.Authors: Gregory C. Bernard Tuskegee University Mulumebet Worku North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University, Mohamed Ahmedna Qatar University

Dr Niki C. Whitley and Dr James E. Miller, North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University, Greensboro, NC, USA

Fernandez, M. I., B.W. Woodward and B.E. Stromberg. 1998. Effect of diatomaceous earth as an anthelmintic treatment on internal parasites and feedlot performance of beef steers. Animal Science. 66:635-641. DOI: 10.1017/S1357729800009206

Ahmed, M., M.D. Laing, and I.V. Nsahlai. 2013. Studies on the ability of two isolates of Bacillus thuringiensis, an isolate of Clonostachys rosea f. rosea, and a diatomaceous earth product, to control gastrointestinal nematodes of sheep. Biocontrol Science and Technology. DOI:

Bowie, E.A. 2014. Alternative treatments for Haemonchus contortus in sheep: Testing of a natural dewormer and literature review of management. Dickinson College Honors Thesis. Paper 163.

Nuti, L., B. Johnson, D. McWhinney. N. El-Sayed, and T. Craig. 2000. Is there any effect by dietary diatomaceous earths in the control of gastrointestinal nematodes? Proceedings of the American Association of Veterinary Parasitologists meeting. 45:50.

El Gayar, A., T. Craig, J. Thompson, B. Johnson, D. McWhinney and L. Nuti. 2002. The effect of protein levels and diatomaceous earths on Haemonchus contortus challenge in goats. Proceedings of the American Association of Veterinary Parasitologists meeting. 47:53-54.

The 'Chicken Chick' also has great info, but I can't link her site.

 

[Apis mellifera]

Eggs, honey, or home grown vegetables. I find many hobby farms under value their hard work and love for producing food.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/can’t-afford-rising-feed-prices.1558479/post-26416226

why I come to BYC. Thank you @nuthatched for doing the work and gathering the research.

 

[Soonermagic254]

Commercial feed is the most economical option.

Input quality leads directly to output. If you feed too many scraps and treats, their nutrition becomes unbalanced, and the egg production suffers. If you put less in, you get much less out.
That's why big business actually cares about getting the nutrition right.
If they could get the same number of eggs by turning a bunch of hens loose on a property, that's what egg production would look like in America.

If you want to save money on feed, you need production hens. Young ones. They are bred to make the most out of every drop. 3-4 Leghorns would feed a big family all the eggs they could eat.

We recently had 8 Leghorns, now 4, and we are drowning in eggs. Been selling the hens to nice homes and plan on only keeping 2.

Leghorns are laying machines. Their personalities suck though.

 

[3KillerBs]

heir personalities suck though.

I've never had Leghorns, but my California Whites are Leghorn-adjacent and I find them highly entertaining. Mischievous and intelligent.

 

[samanthaoverton]

Leghorns are laying machines. Their personalities suck though.

Ahh come on..my girls are sweeties.

 

[Kanekoded]

I don't question your intent.

Your suggestion, however, is to offer a glass of water to a starving hen.

That you don't understand why that doesn't work, and mistake a mere doubling in volume for a substantial change in nutritional value transforms good intent into harmful advice.

OP's chickens don't care WHAT you intended. The best of intent will not meet their nutritional needs. Several of us, more educated on this subject, have already offered temporary feeding regimens based on the non chicken feed ingredients OP has on hand to get them thru this period.

I didn't cherry pick anything. I read the studies from the NIH and Science Direct back before I decided to start fermenting my own feed as I too was concerned that my chickens might not get the nutrition needed. I would not have tried it nor would I have suggested it if it was found to lower the nutritional value but according to the studies, it doesn't. If it did, no one would do it, would they? Back when I was fermenting my chicken's feed I really never paid that much attention to exactly how much it expanded but I recalled it being much more than 10-15% and for the sake of the OP, I did a quick experiment to see if it truly came close to doubling by 50%...and it does - in fact, by more. That was all I was saying.

Remember, this whole thread is about helping the OP save money on feed and I simply made a suggestion. Attacking me isn't helping her so, can you kindly stop? Thanks in advance!!

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19373724/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12710480/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30899804/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33466334/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405654518300581

 

[Happy hen lover]

I soak some feed in water every night and feed it to the flock every morning. I soak 2-3 cups of dry pellets and it becomes a mash and doubles in size. Sometimes I mix in some flaxseeds. It’s gone by the time they go to bed. Seems to help in stretching out a 50lb bag of feed.

I do the same sometimes mix in oatmeal, cornmeal, leftovers, dry bread in small amounts. Spare eggs. I also sell my eggs for 4.00 a dozen. You might also set up a few feeding stations so the lowly hens get a chance at it.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I didn't cherry pick anything. I read the studies from the NIH and Science Direct back before I decided to start fermenting my own feed as I too was concerned that my chickens might not get the nutrition needed. I would not have tried it nor would I have suggested it if it was found to lower the nutritional value but according to the studies, it doesn't. If it did, no one would do it, would they? Back when I was fermenting my chicken's feed I really never paid that much attention to exactly how much it expanded but I recalled it being much more than 10-15% and for the sake of the OP, I did a quick experiment to see if it truly came close to doubling by 50%...and it does - in fact, by more. That was all I was saying.

Remember, this whole thread is about helping the OP save money on feed and I simply made a suggestion. Attacking me isn't helping her so, can you kindly stop? Thanks in advance!!

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19373724/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12710480/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30899804/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33466334/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405654518300581

The first study is the one I linked and commented on, above.

The second is a short duration study about the effect of acidified feed (here, by way of fermented feed) on Salmonella concentrations. It has nothing to do with nutrition, didn't consider whether native salmonella would adapt to the more acidic environment, and by study's end, bothe FF fed chickens and non FF fed chickens were excreting the same salmonella load. In short, its effect was brief. 32 chickens, over 13 DAYS.

The third is one I've linked many times before, discussing both solid state and traditional sumberged fermenting methods, the variability based on the bacteria or yeasts used to conduct the ferment, the materials being fermented, and notes that while bioavailability of some nutrients is increased, it is decreased in others - such as Lysine, the second most important amino acid in a chicken's diet.

The fourth looks at a relativey large group of birds, over their fist 35 days of life. Its one I don't link often. It found substantially no differences in body weight gain among the three groups, dry, wet, or fermented (wet faired a little more poorly, 97% of fermented weight at 35 days, which was itself about 97% of dry fed weight at the same period). Wet fed birds had the best yield and the lowest fat, as well as the largest thighs - at the expense of smaller breastsa and larger livers (two undesired traits in meat birds). Feed conversion ratio was best for dry food, next best for ferment, and worst for wet - but all were within 10% of one another. There is no 50% gain in feed efficiency by making things fermented, as you continue to claim - in this study (with all its limitations), birds fed fermented feed were LESS efficient than birds fed dry. The limit of this study, in large part,is its very short duration. The first study hints at the morphological changes in birds over time in response to diet.

and the fifth link is the same as the third.

None of which support any of your claims about massively increased nutrition from fermentation.


PLEASE, put the shovel away. Stop digging. Maybe read some of the things you've juist linked for understanding.