Can I breed ER/eWh heterozygote out of my Black Copper Marans?

[Sparklee]

Is it possible to breed out the ER/eWh heterozygote? Or is it always there in your flock?

Are there any Black Copper Marans that aren't carrying that gene? If so, who's breeding and selling them or which lines should we focus on?

Additionally, what about the egg color? Is that ER/eWh making a difference with the egg color?

And the ER/eWh, does it always show up in the breast and hackles of the cock or do they sometimes feather out to the French Standard?

Is there a book that explains chicken genetics simply for the lay person with only high school level biology background? Chicken genetics still seem a little complicated to me.

 

[wohneli]

huh?

 

[Krys109uk]

huh?

ER = Birchen (needed for copper blacks)
eWh = Wheaten
Heterozygote means the genes in a gene pair are not the same gene. (called different alleles)

Yes, absoutely, you can breed it out. And there are sure to be pure copper black birds in US.

First you could test mate the copper blacksc to see whether they carry wheaten. If you mate a ER/eWh bird with any other wheaten bird (could be a buff orp if you like) you will get some yellow chicks, all things being equal,about 25%. This way you would know the birds carrying wheaten. You could then decide whether you want to continue using these birds.
If you decide to continue with the heterozygous birds there are a number of genes you will need to watch for & they won't necessarily be noticeable at hatch.​

 

[Sparklee]

Quote:
Okay, so would that mean that approx. 75% would not be carrying the the Wheaten gene? So if I bred just those 75%, then I would have kicked out the Wheaten gene and I won't see it anymore from this source? Or do I need to breed the 75% with a Wheaten bird again to get the rest of the Wheaten out?

There's got to be a good reason why all Black Copper Marans breeders don't breed the Wheaten gene out, right? I'm sure I'm missing something here. Is it because of the dark eggs? Or is it because some want more red on the breast?

When I buy Black Copper Marans from someone (approved (yes, he/she seriously had to get an approval) breeder selling imported lines from a big name breeder here in the States), why do they sell me a bird that has the Wheaten recessive gene? And I'm not upset with the birds I just hatched or the breeder. I like my birds. They are good-looking so far and friendly (to me and each other), calm, and healthy. I don't want my money back or anything like that. I'm new at this and thought for sure that if I bought from a reputable breeder that I would get "breeder quality" instead of "hatchery quality." Or maybe it's totally acceptable for a Black Copper Marans in a French Standard breeding and selling program to carry a recessive Wheaten gene.

Wow, I got a little off topic. Gushing thanks, etc., to you Krys109uk, for the info. I've got so much to learn yet and you've helped. Now, to figure out if I've already got any Wheaten birds to breed with my BC Marans when they're mature. I guess I'm off to check out New Hampshire Reds.
And off to find a few books over the next few weeks, too.

 

[Krys109uk]

Okay, so would that mean that approx. 75% would not be carrying the the Wheaten gene?

No, 'fraid not. That would just mean that the parent which you had mated to the wheaten was carrying a wheaten gene itself.
If you breed something to a homozygous wheaten then all of the offspring will carry at least one wheaten gene. It was just a means of knowing which of you adult stock is carrying wheaten. Nothing else.
If you are going to try to breed it out it helps to know which birds are actually carrying the recessive gene in the first place.

Breeding wheaten out while retaining the required genes for correct copper black colour is a little more complicated than some. I can't tell whether it would be seen as easy. I did maths at college because it was the easiest subject, but other people found other subjects the easiest for them.​

 

[Sparklee]

Quote:
No, 'fraid not. That would just mean that the parent which you had mated to the wheaten was carrying a wheaten gene itself.

I just rushed back here from the shower where I figured out my mistake while thinking about how to set up the test batches. I had hoped to change my post before you had to reply to my error. My apologies.

So if I mate the Black Copper Marans (BCM) with Wheaten Ameraucanas (hatchery Easter Eggers), and got even one yellow chick, then that would mean the parent BCM is Wheaten recessive. So. 7 pens, marked eggs, and marked birds (that's how many BCMs I have). Sounds time consuming. Possibly that is why breeders don't breed out Wheatens.

I can do a Wheaten Cock on a BCM Hen and also a BCM Cock on a Wheaten Hen, right? It works both ways, correct?

Thanks for help. It's all rather interesting.

 

[KellyHM]

Part of the reason some of the BCs carry the Wheaten gene is b/c everyone in the states is still working on type. And if breeders don't "test" them to see if they carry the gene they'll never know which ones do and which ones don't.

 

[Krys109uk]

As David has said in a different thread. It often can be seen as the birds feather up & sometimes as adults.

 

[blackdotte]

Yes you can make a test mating either way. If you want to cut down on the amount of culls use Wheaten Marans as your test birds.
If,for instance, you mate a suspect BC to a Wheaten and
1)you get Wheaten chicks, you know your BC is a carrier, and so are all the BC looking chicks from this mating, the Wheaten chicks will breed true,
2) you get no Wheaten chicks, your BC is pure,but all the BC looking chicks from this mating are carriers.
Let us say you get a mixture of pure BCs and Wheaten carriers, the possible matings are
1)BC X BC = 100% BC
2)BC X BC(Wheaten carrier ie ER/ER X ER/eWh) = 50% ER/ER (BC);
50% ER/eWh carriers
3) BC(Wheaten carrier ie ER/ER X ER/eWh) X BC(Wheaten carrier ie ER/ER X ER/eWh) = 25% ER/ER (BC), 50% ER/eWh carriers, 25% Wheaten.
The reason that Wheaten is so common in BC is that many people can not tell BC & Wheaten cockerels apart.
I hope that helps, but feel free to PM me.
Recommending a book is difficult as I have just written one, PM me for details if interested
David

 

[walkswithdog]

Quote:
No, 'fraid not. That would just mean that the parent which you had mated to the wheaten was carrying a wheaten gene itself.

I just rushed back here from the shower where I figured out my mistake while thinking about how to set up the test batches. I had hoped to change my post before you had to reply to my error. My apologies.

So if I mate the Black Copper Marans (BCM) with Wheaten Ameraucanas (hatchery Easter Eggers), and got even one yellow chick, then that would mean the parent BCM is Wheaten recessive. So. 7 pens, marked eggs, and marked birds (that's how many BCMs I have). Sounds time consuming. Possibly that is why breeders don't breed out Wheatens.

I can do a Wheaten Cock on a BCM Hen and also a BCM Cock on a Wheaten Hen, right? It works both ways, correct?

Thanks for help. It's all rather interesting.

I would use wheaten marans... but otherwise you NAILED why it isn't weeded out more often.

7 pens.... that's a lot of time and money.

And it IS possible that wheaten is contributing in a positive manner to egg color.

Which is what you won't know until your first batch of cleanly BCMs are laying is if you've killed the egg color for your line in that generation that you just worked so darn hard to clean up, grow out and get.

Which would mean you'd have typier birds, and poor colored eggs. AKA by the breed standard - not marans. Then you'd have to do the whole, pick the darkest eggs, hatch only those birds, grow them out, hatch only the darkest eggs from them and hope in two or three generations to get back to 4 and above.

Part of the reason the combo birds exist is money, time and FEAR. Selecting for type has already cost many people egg color. There's a reason there are "color groups" listed on the French Site. If you lose egg color you don't own marans. It's a very tough criteria.

Marans are gorgeous but the breed as whole is wonderfully complicated to work with.

At least if you use Wheaten Marans to check breed to, you're creating more Marans and not some throw away 1/2 breed.

I wish you luck.