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Can I Make a Lemon Blue with a Self Blue Bird?????

Discussion in 'Exhibition, Genetics, & Breeding to the Standard o' started by BaileyMChicks, Nov 30, 2015.

  1. BaileyMChicks

    BaileyMChicks Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Hi I once again have a question on color and genetics, and I'm still not sure where the best place to post questions like these are, but anyways, I'm hoping to get some brown red, blue, and self blue OEGB in the spring, and I really love lemon blues, and I was wondering if it's possible to make a lemon blue with a brown red rooster and a self blue hen??
     
  2. junebuggena

    junebuggena Overrun With Chickens

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    Self-blue is a recessive blue, and quite different from the Blue/Black/Splash color. From my understanding, Lemon Blues have the dominant BBS gene, rather than the recessive self blue. Self blue is a the recessive dilute gene for black and requires two copies of the gene to be expressed. BBS is a dominant dilute gene for black. One gene results in Blue, two genes results in Splash.

    To make a true Lemon Blue, you need Brown Red coloration with the BBS dilute gene.
     
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  3. BaileyMChicks

    BaileyMChicks Chillin' With My Peeps

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    So, are you saying that I technically could, and it just wouldn't be a 'true' lemon blue, or would it completely not work and I would need normal blue? If it wouldn't work, what do you think the chicks would turn out to look like?
     
  4. junebuggena

    junebuggena Overrun With Chickens

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    Self blues breed like solid black birds when crossed with other colors. You might be able to get something close to Lemon Blue by crossing second generation chicks, but it still won't be true Lemon Blue. And labeling, selling, or showing those birds as Lemon Blues would be extremely dishonest.
    This thread has some good info regarding the breeding of Lemon Blues.
    https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/376965/genetics-behind-lemon-blue-cochin/40
     
  5. BaileyMChicks

    BaileyMChicks Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Thanks. I wasn't going to sell them. I was just curious as to what they would turn out like. I just like experimenting with colors and genetics and seeing what happens. I would never sell a bird as one color when it's not, especially in this case. I know how to make a normal lemon blue(you cross a brown red and a blue), but I was just wondering what would happen if you used self blue instead of normal blue. I do not sell hatching eggs, chicks, or adult birds, but I would like to eventually start my own hatching/selling business and as a school project I'm going to work on designing a website.
     
  6. Sonoran Silkies

    Sonoran Silkies Flock Mistress

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    First generation you would have blacks with a lot of gold leakage; second generation if bred back to lemon blue would give you some with a relatively correct pattern, but excessively dilute. The lemon would be much too dilute for the variety as the lavender gene dilutes gold as well as black.

    If you just want an idea of what a combination would give you, play around with the chicken calculator :)
     
  7. Wappoke

    Wappoke Chillin' With My Peeps

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    You will most likely get a light buff color or buff blue. Lemon blue varies greatly in the birds I have seen, so you may get a plumage color that is very interesting. I would call it a lemon lavender that way it is different than a lemon blue.

    The biggest problem I can forsee in the breeding regimen is that you will not know if the self-blue breeder is gold or silver. If you use a self blue male and he is silver that will throw a monkey wrench into your breeding regimen. It would be better to use a brown red male x self-blue female. as parents

    brown red male x self-blue female = F1 more or less black offspring


    if the self blue female parent is silver, then all the F1 black offspring males will be silver and all the F1 females will be gold ( gold because dad was gold) The males that are silver will express some white feathers in the hackles

    If all the F1 offspring are showing red feathers then both the parents are gold and that is what you want.

    Assuming both parents are gold then

    do an F1 cross ( F1 male x F1 female ) if you are lucky the lavender parent bird and the brown red parent will be carrying the same E locus gene. This will greatky increase the odds of you producing F2 offspring that are lemon lavender.( 3 out of 16)

    if the E locus is different in the parents then you will have to hatch over 50 chicks to get a few or even no F2 offspring that will be lemon lavender. There is a gene called melanotic that will come into play in the F2 offspring. Some of the F2 will be black or even self blue but most will have increased black pigment in the pyle zone and a few will not carry the melanotic.

    the f2 chicks that do not inherit melanotic, are gold , inherit two birchen alleles ( allele from brown red) and inherit two lavender genes will be lemon lavenders
     

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