Can someone define silver pied to me

[Peafowlssssssss]

Oh i just saw AugeredIn reply

 

[KsKingBee]

It's OK Q8, the more input the better! Thanks to the both of you! Both of my hens are very silver looking with a few white lacy feathers on the back. I am now, with your input, very hopeful that they are indeed carrying double w/e genes.

 

[AugeredIn]

Those tinged feathers are a dead give away with that frosty look.

 

[DylansMom]

Those tinged feathers are a dead give away with that frosty look.

I too have a darker pied hen, who I was told came from silver pied parents. She has some of those frosty looking feathers on her back, not a lot, but some. When paired w/ a white male we get whites, pieds and silver pieds. So perhaps she carries 1 copy of WE? However, what about this hen, you've probably seen my pics of her before, she is a spalding and we think she has something going on WE related, but she does not have those frosty looking feathers, she has str

aight up white feathers running down her back and what would be her train, if she were male, why are her's white as opposed to frosty? Just looking for your best guess or opinion here!

 

[AugeredIn]

She looks dark silver pied or dark pied white eye. If you are getting whites she is has to be pied/silver pied.

 

[AugeredIn]

..and she definitely has WE going on as well. If she came from silver pied parent it would have to be full WE.

 

[Trefoil]

I just avoid the term loud pied when talking to anyone other than a couple of breeders. I just describe the birds as to what they are genetically. The eye color and masking issue is because this is a pied white eye bird and not a silver pied. With regards to loud pied, I have never found a written definition of "loud pied" but I have heard it used to describe a pied bird with a single white eye gene. Some of those birds are obviously nicer than others. I doubt we are ever going to get everyone to agree on a definition.

I'm not trying to be difficult, it just worries me that until/unless we agree on what exactly a silver pied pea looks like, how can we define the genetics required to breed one? That said, I worded my search differently this time and found an article by
Brad legg. This isn't the whole article, I couldn't figure out how to link to it.
History of the Silver Pied Peafowl Mutation

by Brad Legg

The origin of the Silver Pied Peafowl started around 1992; Silver Pied is a pattern mutation, not a color mutation. The color on the Silver Pied bird is the same as on a India Blue. Silver Pied is a combination of the Pied and the White-Eyed gene working together with the White gene. These Silver Pied birds originally showed up in three flocks, one bird from each flock, across the United States around the same time in 1992.

India Blue Silver Pied Pair

Black Shoulder Silver Pied
What is known today is that all three original birds trace back several generations to one bloodline, White-Eyed peafowl. The White-eyed peafowl, birds with white eyes in the train, founding breeder was Ernie West of California.
The White-eyed peafowl was later bred with the India Blue Pied, which is recognized today as India Blue Pied White-Eyed.
When breeding the India Blue Pied White-Eyed to itself for some years its like this variety compounded itself with the white gene and then created the new pattern mutation, Silver Pied. Essentially the Silver Pied is a White bird with 10% to 20 % color on it compared to a India Blue Pied White-Eyed bird that is a colored bird with 30% to 40 % white on it.
What seems to be the link that helped create Silver Pied were the White-Eyed peafowl, which traces back to the White peafowl. Without the White-Eyed peafowl there would not be any Silver Pied peafowl today.

Purple Silver Pied

Cameo Silver Pied Genotypically, the Silver Pied males have White-Eyed feathers in the train. Phenotypically, the Silver Pied males can have pure White feathers in the train. This is because the White gene has mask the White-Eyed feather in the bird. Genotype is the genetic make-up of the feather. Phenotype, is the visual make-up of the feather.

 

[AugeredIn]

So what is your take on Brad's article. Is he saying any pied WE bird is silver pied if it has lots of white or do you think he is saying or implying that there is a mutation of the WE gene that makes silver pied different from pied white eye?

I don't think you are being difficult at all. I just think the definition already exists, we just may not have the knowledge to understand it.


Edited to include: Would the UPA recognize pied white eye separately from silver pied if there is not a mutation involved?

 

[AugeredIn]

And again, we cannot in any official manner define birds by what they look like separately from their genetic makeup. Loud pied almost certainly means different things to different people. I use it in the context of the guys that know way more than me and only in conversations with them.

 

[Trefoil]

rest of article;

Of the three original birds, which were all males, some carried the Black Shoulder gene as well.
About 2 to 3 years later the Silver Pied pattern showed up in the Black Shoulder peafowl.
It was thought of how beautiful the Silver Pied pattern would look in other colors of peafowl such as Cameo or Purple.

Spalding Silver Pied
Due to the extensive work by some breeders for several years, today the Silver Pied peafowl make up the following varieties:

• India Blue Silver Pied
• Black Shoulder Silver Pied
• Cameo Silver Pied
• Cameo Black Shoulder, Silver Pied
• Purple Silver Pied
• Bronze Silver Pied
• Spalding Silver Pied
• Peach Silver Pied.
• Opal Silver Pied
• Midnight Silver Pied
• Midnight Black Shoulder Silver Pied
• Spalding Jade Silver Pied

Like all pied breeding, there is varying amounts of white on the birds. Generally speaking the birds are 80% to 90% white with the other percentage being color. The mantel or top of the shoulders appear silver as the peacocks mature. The peahens are the same pattern as the males except the color on the body are silver and white. When these birds are hatched they appear white with usually a dot or two of color on the back of the head and neck area; some times a small patch of color on the back or wings. There are variances in the pattern on the chicks as well.
As with breeding any pied pattern of peafowl the ratio is 1-2-1. When breeding Silver Pied to Silver Pied you get an average of 25% white, 50 % Silver Pied, 25% Dark Pied “White-Eyed”.
It’s been 15 years since this pattern mutation came in existence. They are as popular now or even more so than in the beginning. There is more work being done to make the Silver Pied Pattern in all the new colors of peafowl. Hope this helps everyone understand the Silver Pied peafowl.