Can't seem to win. More sick birds?

[Ahoragi]

We first found out that almost all the birds have bumblefoot which we have yet to treat. Then the birds started having the runs which smelled really bad so we treated them with Ampromed for two weeks till that cleared up. Yesterday evening one bird was motionless in the corner of the fence and I came out this morning to find alot of the runs again and one with slight pink in it. Looks like they are getting sick again.

Their coop does not smell, is clean of any poo (we have a poop board), was limed last week and every month. Nesting boxes are clean with just straw and also limed. We are getting 14-16 eggs a day (16 birds) if that tells anything. Birds are 7 months old.

Coop has horse pellet bedding, run has sand, and fenced area is grass and dirt. We live in the middle of farm land so a lot of birds, animals, deer, etc.

I am not sure what to do. There are no poultry vets near us and the regular vets kill the wallet with just a checkup visit.

 

[Debbie292d]

I'm confused how all of your birds got bumblefoot. Are the horse bedding pellets a new thing or are they jumping down too far? I ask because we've been using them in our coops and brooders for around 9 years and never have had one case of bumblefoot.

Until you can treat them for bumblefoot, I'd at least put them on a ritual of probiotics and vitamins. For probiotics, Kalmbach's makes a powder you can mix in their feed, as does Rooster Booster make vitamin granuals for mixing in their feed. If you prefer treating via their water, there's Hydro-Hen and other powders for the probiotics, and Poultry Cell for the vitamins. I'd alternate days on these.

Do you need help to deal with the bumblefoot? We've got tons of articles here we can share with you if you do.

 

[coach723]

If you can post some pictures of your set up, coop, run, roosting set up, where they spend the day, it might help with suggestions on the bumblefoot causes. Pictures of some of the feet also, depending on how deep or large the lesions are, some may be able to be treated topically. Also pictures of the droppings might be helpful. Have you ever wormed them or had a fecal done (if your vet will do that, a mixed sample of fresh droppings would give a look at the flock in general)? Sometimes internal parasites can be a cause of runny droppings, and if the pink you saw was intestinal shed (that's why pictures might help), then internal parasites can sometimes cause an increase in that as well. Worming is pretty safe, so if you aren't sure you might consider worming them all. You can get Safeguard liquid goat wormer or Safeguard horse paste locally usually, or Valbazen (labeled for cattle) on line. Those are some of the most commonly used. Are they eating anything different in the area they are, a new fall weed that came up, etc?

 

[Ahoragi]

I'm confused how all of your birds got bumblefoot. Are the horse bedding pellets a new thing or are they jumping down too far? I ask because we've been using them in our coops and brooders for around 9 years and never have had one case of bumblefoot.

Until you can treat them for bumblefoot, I'd at least put them on a ritual of probiotics and vitamins. For probiotics, Kalmbach's makes a powder you can mix in their feed, as does Rooster Booster make vitamin granuals for mixing in their feed. If you prefer treating via their water, there's Hydro-Hen and other powders for the probiotics, and Poultry Cell for the vitamins. I'd alternate days on these.

Do you need help to deal with the bumblefoot? We've got tons of articles here we can share with you if you do.

The horse pellet bedding isn't exactly new. It's been there about a month and a half. We switched over to it after trying out the deep litter method with pine shavings which was not working out possibly due to the extreme heat we had this summer. The coop was smelling really bad. The pellet bedding has been awesome, zero smell. They only have to hop down a foot and half at most. We noticed their bumblefoot before the switch. Now we have a toilet (poop board) for them and might go back to pine shavings for the wintertime.

We think the bumblefoot may have been a combination of the secure run door opening and wood chips that we had in the secure run. We have hardware cloth that surrounds the secure run and it goes around the chicken's door to the middle run. It was cut off a bit too close to the bottom plank of the door and I assume their foot was getting cut as they step in and out. I have since cut it further down and smoothed it out. The wood chips were from the tree guys who dumped their entire load on our property b4 cutting down two trees for us. We use it for the garden. The secure run got flooded during heavy rains this spring so I used the chips to keep them out of the mud. It worked but I noticed alot of the wood was pointy and sharp. Not 100% sure this played a part though.

We both work full time, different shifts, with very little down time so it has been hard to find time together to treat the foot issues. And being that almost all of them have it is making it quite a daunting tast to take on. I have been watching bumblefoot cure vids and write-ups though.

If you can post some pictures of your set up, coop, run, roosting set up, where they spend the day, it might help with suggestions on the bumblefoot causes. Pictures of some of the feet also, depending on how deep or large the lesions are, some may be able to be treated topically. Also pictures of the droppings might be helpful. Have you ever wormed them or had a fecal done (if your vet will do that, a mixed sample of fresh droppings would give a look at the flock in general)? Sometimes internal parasites can be a cause of runny droppings, and if the pink you saw was intestinal shed (that's why pictures might help), then internal parasites can sometimes cause an increase in that as well. Worming is pretty safe, so if you aren't sure you might consider worming them all. You can get Safeguard liquid goat wormer or Safeguard horse paste locally usually, or Valbazen (labeled for cattle) on line. Those are some of the most commonly used. Are they eating anything different in the area they are, a new fall weed that came up, etc?

We have only done the Ampromed treatment so far. I checked today and their droppings on the toilet seem to be normal compared to yesterday. No runs or pink. There were a bunch of small feathers in the secure run which I assume is the start of the molting. I will check the next few days and see what we see. Having the poop board toilet is really helpful in monitoring their droppings.

I am sorry but I was unable to get any pictures of their feet as I am by myself at this time with the wife at work. They basically have black dots that are about 1/8" to 3/16" round on the bottom of their feet. None are red or swollen as far as I could see but some had multiple spots on each foot.

I will look into the worming meds if we continue to see odd behavior.

Here are some pictures:

 

[Ahoragi]

More:

 

[Ahoragi]

They have approx 250ft of fenced in area to roam. Towards the back are two oak trees and a whole lot of acorns but that's the shaded area they hang out in when it's hot. We call this large area the open run. The middle run is the area with the wire spool. This used to be their main run and it was full of grass...till it wasn't. The secure run is the hardware clothed section with the door held open by the cinder block. That door opening (pix with the chicken) is where I think they were injuring their feet. I have since bent it down and cut it smooth.

 

[Hartwood Hollow Farm]

We first found out that almost all the birds have bumblefoot which we have yet to treat. Then the birds started having the runs which smelled really bad so we treated them with Ampromed for two weeks till that cleared up. Yesterday evening one bird was motionless in the corner of the fence and I came out this morning to find alot of the runs again and one with slight pink in it. Looks like they are getting sick again.

Their coop does not smell, is clean of any poo (we have a poop board), was limed last week and every month. Nesting boxes are clean with just straw and also limed. We are getting 14-16 eggs a day (16 birds) if that tells anything. Birds are 7 months old.

Coop has horse pellet bedding, run has sand, and fenced area is grass and dirt. We live in the middle of farm land so a lot of birds, animals, deer, etc.

I am not sure what to do. There are no poultry vets near us and the regular vets kill the wallet with just a checkup visit.

I think the horse pellet bedding might be the issue…those are hard round little cylinders of pressed pine saw dust. They are probably difficult for the birds to walk on… particularly on a hard surface like the coop floor.
Larger animals (horse, goats and such)can walk on the pellets because they are heavy enough to crush them under foot.

I also wonder if the birds might accidentally ingest them while scratching for food.

We’ve always used pine shavings and had no issues.

Everyone with animals have been down a similar path.

Caring for animals is all about learning how to care for animals.

No one gets it right all the time….or we would put the vets out of business…

 

[coach723]

Pine shavings work great, as long as they stay dry. I've used them for years, and years. If we have a hard rain, or hurricane where it's all blowing sideways, things get wet and that is when it stinks. So if you have flooding or drainage issues, I would address that. When mine get wet I go out with a hay fork and toss and turn it all a couple of times a day until it dries out, then the stink is gone as well. If it's just truly soaked, I will take out whatever portion that is and either put it in my burn pile, or spread it in the grass somewhere else in the sun to dry out (usually I just burn it), and replace with dry. But that could get expensive if it's happening a lot.
I think you may be right about the hardware cloth at the door. Other issues I've had have been with wooden roosts and ramps that get dry and splinter. My roosts are now painted, which helps prevent splinters, and I got rid of ramps (they tend to slide on them) and use stacked concrete blocks or hay bales for steps. So take a good look at any unpainted wood, see if it may be a contributing factor.
From your description, it sounds like most of the bumblefoot spots are small and shallow, which is good. Some of them may resolve with topical treatments, or even on their own. Rather than be overwhelmed trying to treat them all, I would just do a few at a time. Check their feet at night while they are roosting (calmer and easier to catch), and pick the ones that are worst and work on those. If they are hard to tell apart, I use colored zip ties to band them loosely, so I know which ones I need to grab for treatment. Once those are resolved, move on to the next.
Where are you located, generally, in the world? Are your winters cold? I'm asking because of the metal, looks like maybe scaffolding, in the one picture, with the ladder up. If you have freezing temps that could be a risk of frostbite on feet, or even feet freezing to it.

 

[Ahoragi]

I think the horse pellet bedding might be the issue…those are hard round little cylinders of pressed pine saw dust. They are probably difficult for the birds to walk on… particularly on a hard surface like the coop floor.
Larger animals (horse, goats and such)can walk on the pellets because they are heavy enough to crush them under foot.

I also wonder if the birds might accidentally ingest them while scratching for food.

We’ve always used pine shavings and had no issues.

Everyone with animals have been down a similar path.

Caring for animals is all about learning how to care for animals.

No one gets it right all the time….or we would put the vets out of business…

We had the foot issues before I put down the pellet bedding. I remember having wood chips in the run and the coop was smelling due to the pine shavings. I switched out the wood chips for sand when I read that people experienced bumblefoot on their chickens when they switched to wood chips. So I did that to prevent any further injuries but then realized the door may have been the actual issue. I've read alot of good reviews on the pellet bedding with chickens but if that's a concern I can easily switch back since I have 7 bales of pine shavings in the barn.

Pine shavings work great, as long as they stay dry. I've used them for years, and years. If we have a hard rain, or hurricane where it's all blowing sideways, things get wet and that is when it stinks. So if you have flooding or drainage issues, I would address that. When mine get wet I go out with a hay fork and toss and turn it all a couple of times a day until it dries out, then the stink is gone as well. If it's just truly soaked, I will take out whatever portion that is and either put it in my burn pile, or spread it in the grass somewhere else in the sun to dry out (usually I just burn it), and replace with dry. But that could get expensive if it's happening a lot.
I think you may be right about the hardware cloth at the door. Other issues I've had have been with wooden roosts and ramps that get dry and splinter. My roosts are now painted, which helps prevent splinters, and I got rid of ramps (they tend to slide on them) and use stacked concrete blocks or hay bales for steps. So take a good look at any unpainted wood, see if it may be a contributing factor.
From your description, it sounds like most of the bumblefoot spots are small and shallow, which is good. Some of them may resolve with topical treatments, or even on their own. Rather than be overwhelmed trying to treat them all, I would just do a few at a time. Check their feet at night while they are roosting (calmer and easier to catch), and pick the ones that are worst and work on those. If they are hard to tell apart, I use colored zip ties to band them loosely, so I know which ones I need to grab for treatment. Once those are resolved, move on to the next.
Where are you located, generally, in the world? Are your winters cold? I'm asking because of the metal, looks like maybe scaffolding, in the one picture, with the ladder up. If you have freezing temps that could be a risk of frostbite on feet, or even feet freezing to it.

We don't have any flooding or moist issues in the coop as far I can tell. The pine shavings were smelling because the urine was settling at the bottom of the pile above where they roost. I may not have turned it enough or often enough but I did stir it up once in a while and added a new bale every 3 weeks or so. It smelled so bad when I was scraping the last half inch of pine shavings off the floor to replace with pellets.

We are in western Pennsylvania and yeah we get cold and freezing temps. That laddered roosting thing was a toy the wife bought that was designed for chickens and I made note to remove it when it gets cold. Thanks for the reminder on that. It's still in the mid-80's here so we are ok for a while longer. The wife likes buying them toys.

I will discuss with the wife on trying to treat the feet issues.

 

[coach723]

Thanks for clarifying the shavings, I was assuming you meant in the run. But, yeah, just having that under the roosts would not be optimal. I have poop boards as well, I scrape them daily, makes things a lot easier and keeps the stink, and flies, down. I tried sand on them once, didn't like that at all, more work, more stink. But some others like it. I took it all out and just use the boards. I put a piece of plastic wall paneling down on top of the board so I can take that out when needed and scrub it down, but daily I just scrape with a large putty/spackle knife, goes in a bucket and then to yard, flowerbeds, garden. And the shavings on the ground in the coop, under the poop boards, stays cleaner and lasts a lot longer.