Carbon Dioxide causes the pip with muscle spasms

[silkienewbiegurl]

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I found this reference that substantiates the info in the link that patandchickens provided: http://www.funnyfarmexotics.com/IAS/2003Proceedings/Romagnano_Pediatrics.pdf

The article discusses the role of C02 on hatching muscles (page 3) and refers to two articles in the references section (sorry, I can't seem to cut and paste the reference here). It seems that the authors were referring to psittacines (parrots, parakeets, etc.), but it would logically apply to chickens. The timelines between drawing down and pipping might be different tho'. If anyone finds the research on chickens, I'd love to hear it.

 

[kathyinmo]

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EXCELLENT article and explanation! Thanks so much, Pat!


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Oh, and I love this article, too! Thanks silkienewbie!

Both of these articles explain it quite well.

 

[ArizonaDesertChicks]

I had to bring an egg inside the house to hatch last summer because my broody failed. The chick had not pipped yet, but was cheeping. I had no incubator and ended up setting the egg under a light with a meat thermometer for monitoring the temps. I then put the basket with egg, light, & thermometer in my bathroom with a room humidifier going and the door open about 3 inches (no hygrometer, so no idea what the humidity was). The chick pipped the egg and then 6 hours later, it hatched all on it own. There wouldn't have been much carbon dioxide in that bathroom.

This last weekend, I just finished my first hatch in an incubator (homemade) and 16 out of 18 eggs made it. I opened the lid several times to either adjust the temp (dimmer switch) or remove chicks, but...... I did make sure to have 2 room humidifiers going in my bedroom so that the humidity didn't suffer when I did this (I'm not recommending opening the bator, but don't think it hurt my hatch because of the extra humidity in the room). Out of the two eggs that didn't make it, one chick had pipped at the wrong end, the other was fully developed, but never pipped. If there needs to be a build up of carbon dioxide in an incubator for chicks to hatch, how would the first few chicks hatch successfully?

This is a quote from one of the websites stated in a previous post:

"The initiation of hatch occurs partially from the increased carbon dioxide level in the egg. This causes the embryo to begin twitching it's muscles, allowing the inner shell membrane to be punctured by the egg tooth. The chick then begins breathing the air in the air cell. As the carbon dioxide level begins to rise again, the muscularia complexus (the pipping muscle) at the base of the neck begins twitching again, facilitating the hatch. Abdominal muscles also begin twitching, which helps draw the yolk sac into the celoem. Leg muscle twitching helps strengthen the legs."

It looks to me like the carbon dioxide needed to initiate hatching is building up inside the egg (from the chick itself), not from the other chicks in the incubator. Too much carbon dioxide would kill a chick - they have just the amount they need inside that egg.

 

[kathyinmo]

Out of the two eggs that didn't make it, one chick had pipped at the wrong end, the other was fully developed, but never pipped.

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According to that article:
Eggs exposed to low humidity may dry out and prevent normal pipping.

Each time opening the incubator would be exposure to low humidity.​

 

[patandchickens]

I do not think that you need or want a buildup of CO2 in the incubator atmosphere. It seems to me that the only way to get it would be to restrict airflow which will also limit 02 availability at a time when the eggs and chicks particularly need it.

The articles, and the research papers I ran across abstracts of in my googling, are specifically talking about CO2 concentrations in the EGG (air cell). I really get the impression they are talking about the reason for the increased CO2 concentration being the maturation of the chick itself, respiring more CO2 into the air cell, NOT acquisition from the atmosphere.

(In contrast, I have read that slightly increased atmospheric concentration of CO2 in teh first three days of incubation improves embryonic development)

So while there are a variety of problems you can potentially cause by opening the incubator during the last 3 days, I seriously do not think that decreasing chance of pipping by lowering air-cell CO2 is likely to be one of them.

(That said, I do not have full text journal access or a convenient university library, so I have not read any more than is freely available via google)


Pat

 

[Joyryder]

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I'm new at this but are we talking of Lockdown Days 19 20 & 21 or the actual hatching period which for me appears to be Days 21, 22 & 23? And maybe its both?
Joanne

 

[chickenmeadow]

Thanks for all of the input, websites & ideas. Keep it comin', we'll get to the bottom of this. Or at least we'll have a better understanding of how wonderful & mysterious Mother Nature is by the way it provides for every step in the development & hatching of an egg.

 

[ArizonaDesertChicks]

Quote:
According to that article:
Eggs exposed to low humidity may dry out and prevent normal pipping.

Each time opening the incubator would be exposure to low humidity.

I'm not advocating opening the incubator, but I don't believe lifting the lid in my case is what caused the 18th egg not to hatch. I actually had two room humidifiers going in my bedroom (real fun for sleeping

) and according to my 2nd hygrometer, which was calibarated and then placed above the incubator at day 18 (on the outside), the humidity in my bedroom was 60 - 65% (almost the same as in the incubator). There was nothing I could have done for the chick that pipped at the wrong end (pip didn't go through all the way) and I thought 16 chicks from 18 eggs was a pretty good percentage.

as for lifting the lid -- "Please do not try this at home"

Most people do not keep their incubators in a small room with humdifiers running. I was just pointing out that there was no build-up of CO2 in my incubator and it didn't keep the babies from coming.

I actually hatched an egg that wasn't in any type of full enclosure (bator, box, etc) and it came out all on its own - no help from me, other than my cheeping for chearleading. This was the last egg left from a very clumsy broody and after finding another crushed egg with a dead chick in it on day 21, I brought the last egg inside (I hadn't brought the others in because I didn't have any incubator and didn't think it was a possibility - at this time, I figured 'what do we have to lose'.

Here's that little chick hatching with the meat thermometer sitting on its shell.

Right after hatching - you can see the basket it hatched in - the light was hooked to the handle above the egg - oops, you can also see the toilet

It came into the house before pipping - pipped about an 45 minutes to an hour later - it was in my bathroom for about 5 more hours before I heard very loud cheeping and ran in to see it zipping and then hatching

I had to run to the feedstore and buy it some buddies since the clutz of a broody destroyed all its hatchmates:

 

[yellowflower]

What if you spritz the eggs if you have to open it? Wouldn't that help with the moisture? I don't have any experience......just a thought.

 

[Germaine_11.20]

I don't think you are supposed to actually get the water on the eggs but spray it generically into the bator.