After reading this thread the only conclusion I have come to is to euthanize her. I don't think, no matter the situation, that she is going to suddenly become a sane and happy kitty.
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Well, we can agree to disagree, because I still say there is no reason for that kind of aggression.
Just like in dogs, a dog that wants to rip another dog to shreds for territorial reasons is not accepted, so why should it be in cats?
Well, we can agree to disagree, because I still say there is no reason for that kind of aggression.
Just like in dogs, a dog that wants to rip another dog to shreds for territorial reasons is not accepted, so why should it be in cats?
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I am wondering if this animal is in pain. I know of a dog who suddenly changed from friendly and loving to attacking. She had surgery for an unrelated reason and a widespread cancer was discovered. She was euthanized while still under anesthesia, no doubt a merciful choice. I agree that euthanasia is the only real choice at this point, in any case.
given the new information i would have the older cat put to sleep.
her life as a barn cat would be miserable, shes a highly string high stress cat who obviuoulsy wants to be with people.
living her life outdoors, would be a huge stressor on her, add to that that outdoors there would be absolutly no control over her interactions with stray or other neighborhood cats (and most folks with a barn or need for a mouser has at least 2...)
placing her in an outdoor/barn home where theres a high risk of her comming into contact with other cats puts her at veyr high risk of a potentially dealdy fight, FIV, and other communal illnesses, infections, loss of sight ect.
if he cannot trust her enough to live with her at this point
its time to do the humane thing and have her put to sleep...
she is NOT a happy cat, that is very obvious...and putting her outdoors in any situation is not going to change that...infact i personaly think, given the information it would likely make her worse!
its a tough spot to be in...
i LOVE animals and would not typically reccomend putting a "healthy' animal to sleep...
but this cat deosnt sound mentally healthy, i dont think it fair on the cat (given her obviously odd mental state) to move her to a new home where stress would put her into over drive, nor do i think its fair on a potential adopter to put them in a position of caring for a cat whos so very obviously in need of alot more thna a "normal" cat owner can give.
i think it would be better for the cat to let her go to sleep peacefully and just not wake up.
i hope he and the kitten heal fine, there will be physical an mental scars form this forever...
make sure he takes his antibotics, cat scratches and bites are nasty!...
and tell him not to feel guilt about letting her go in peace, it realy does sound like the kindest thing he can do for this cat given the choices!
i also wanted to add this level of agression territorial or not is NOT normal in any way shape or form, animals dont attack like this for territorial reasons under normal healthy circumstances.
cats attack, theres growling hissing some biting and kicking and one backs down and bolts and the fight is over, often a couple good claw marks some bites and a little lost fur...thats a normal cat fight, alot of noise but short fast and generally with one cat walking away with a bruised ego and a new notch on ther ear but little other damage...
this attack was not "unprovoked" in the catsmind, however the extremity of the attack is not NORMAL behavior.
i still hold on to the fact that i feel cats dont feel "spite", and this cat is an incredibly high stung stressed cat...(a normal mentlaly helahty cat doesnt react that way)
but given this attack id say this cat is not all mentally there, something cgot crosswired and if she attacked like this once there would be no doubt in my mind that any cat she came across would be a target for an extrem visious attempt to kill...this wasnt a fight...it sounds like kit the older cat had no intentions of allowing the kitten to live, and that is nor normal behaviour for a healthy cat. territorial or not.
her life as a barn cat would be miserable, shes a highly string high stress cat who obviuoulsy wants to be with people.
living her life outdoors, would be a huge stressor on her, add to that that outdoors there would be absolutly no control over her interactions with stray or other neighborhood cats (and most folks with a barn or need for a mouser has at least 2...)
placing her in an outdoor/barn home where theres a high risk of her comming into contact with other cats puts her at veyr high risk of a potentially dealdy fight, FIV, and other communal illnesses, infections, loss of sight ect.
if he cannot trust her enough to live with her at this point
its time to do the humane thing and have her put to sleep...
she is NOT a happy cat, that is very obvious...and putting her outdoors in any situation is not going to change that...infact i personaly think, given the information it would likely make her worse!
its a tough spot to be in...
i LOVE animals and would not typically reccomend putting a "healthy' animal to sleep...
but this cat deosnt sound mentally healthy, i dont think it fair on the cat (given her obviously odd mental state) to move her to a new home where stress would put her into over drive, nor do i think its fair on a potential adopter to put them in a position of caring for a cat whos so very obviously in need of alot more thna a "normal" cat owner can give.
i think it would be better for the cat to let her go to sleep peacefully and just not wake up.
i hope he and the kitten heal fine, there will be physical an mental scars form this forever...
make sure he takes his antibotics, cat scratches and bites are nasty!...
and tell him not to feel guilt about letting her go in peace, it realy does sound like the kindest thing he can do for this cat given the choices!
i also wanted to add this level of agression territorial or not is NOT normal in any way shape or form, animals dont attack like this for territorial reasons under normal healthy circumstances.
cats attack, theres growling hissing some biting and kicking and one backs down and bolts and the fight is over, often a couple good claw marks some bites and a little lost fur...thats a normal cat fight, alot of noise but short fast and generally with one cat walking away with a bruised ego and a new notch on ther ear but little other damage...
this attack was not "unprovoked" in the catsmind, however the extremity of the attack is not NORMAL behavior.
i still hold on to the fact that i feel cats dont feel "spite", and this cat is an incredibly high stung stressed cat...(a normal mentlaly helahty cat doesnt react that way)
but given this attack id say this cat is not all mentally there, something cgot crosswired and if she attacked like this once there would be no doubt in my mind that any cat she came across would be a target for an extrem visious attempt to kill...this wasnt a fight...it sounds like kit the older cat had no intentions of allowing the kitten to live, and that is nor normal behaviour for a healthy cat. territorial or not.
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Cancer?
Hmm, something like that could be possible?
I will tell him and see what the vet thinks.
Thanks for mentioning it.
Cancer?
Hmm, something like that could be possible?
I will tell him and see what the vet thinks.
Thanks for mentioning it.
- Apr 15, 2011
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Well, we can agree to disagree, because I still say there is no reason for that kind of aggression.
Just like in dogs, a dog that wants to rip another dog to shreds for territorial reasons is not accepted, so why should it be in cats?
Yep, again, it is up to the owner to decide. Inputting because it was asked for. I am really surprised at the amount of surprise over the attack though, and hope those who read will understand that this kind of attack can happen from mentally balanced cats.
Had my boss glance over my shoulder earlier. He has owned pretty much anything under the sun (including a rather scary cobalt tarantula, but the whole species is in a foul mood). He said:
"let me guess, chickens?"
Me: yup
Boss: What's happening in the land of chickens today
Me: ...You're pretty familiar with cats, right?
Him: *gives me a look that tells me I have just asked the stupidest question known to man*
Me: Well, let me ask you this. Adult female cat, used to living alone, has a kitten move in. Kept separate, but the kitten gets out. What would you expect the interaction to be?
Him: That kitten would get the holy @$%#%# kicked out of it.
I've seen it way too many times to be shocked with adult females bonded to owners, used to living alone, etc. Most recently, it was a relative's Oriental. Did all the same things, including *intently* waiting by the door to tear into the new young female. Not hiss at. Tear into. My own cat is a lovely and intelligent little thing, super affectionate, smart as a whip, does tricks on command, lovingly grooms our dog and rabbits...but an adult female and used to living alone. We actually consciously made a decision not to get a kitten because of the risk and higher stress for us all involved, and because we have seen heightened aggression from her in regards to kittens before. We went with the easiest type of cat to introduce to a cat like her. Adult male, slightly larger, mellow, about the same age. Took five months of itty bitty baby steps, but they will now play and occasionally lay near each other without aggression from our female. More importantly, she has just begun to allow him access to us and our attention/affection. Big step for her. She has never displayed any behavior to indicate she has a mental illness/imbalance/health issue, and has never been aggressive with a human (though we bought thick gloves when we adopted the male just in case he got out and a fight broke out, because she definitely could do damage if caught in a high-stress moment like that).
So basically, I would just personally encourage your friend to euthanize for reasons regarding improper urination (again, if the health of the cat has been checked, if the box is cleaned often) such as health issues, unsanitary living conditions, unlikely to be rehomed or increased chance of abuse if rehomed. Those will be solid, unchanging reasons, where as a seemingly hurried decision made because of a deeply disturbing incident for a person to watch may change more with time. If it was just this case of aggression, it would be possible to either manage the aggression easily (one cat household since no other or unpredictable aggression was described), or to rehome to a home that no kidding knew she should be an only cat. If euthanizing, I personally would go with reasons I knew wouldn't change once the initial shock and anger wore off. Best of luck to your friend in dealing with this stressful situation.
Just like in dogs, a dog that wants to rip another dog to shreds for territorial reasons is not accepted, so why should it be in cats?
Yep, again, it is up to the owner to decide. Inputting because it was asked for. I am really surprised at the amount of surprise over the attack though, and hope those who read will understand that this kind of attack can happen from mentally balanced cats.
Had my boss glance over my shoulder earlier. He has owned pretty much anything under the sun (including a rather scary cobalt tarantula, but the whole species is in a foul mood). He said:
"let me guess, chickens?"
Me: yup
Boss: What's happening in the land of chickens today
Me: ...You're pretty familiar with cats, right?
Him: *gives me a look that tells me I have just asked the stupidest question known to man*
Me: Well, let me ask you this. Adult female cat, used to living alone, has a kitten move in. Kept separate, but the kitten gets out. What would you expect the interaction to be?
Him: That kitten would get the holy @$%#%# kicked out of it.
I've seen it way too many times to be shocked with adult females bonded to owners, used to living alone, etc. Most recently, it was a relative's Oriental. Did all the same things, including *intently* waiting by the door to tear into the new young female. Not hiss at. Tear into. My own cat is a lovely and intelligent little thing, super affectionate, smart as a whip, does tricks on command, lovingly grooms our dog and rabbits...but an adult female and used to living alone. We actually consciously made a decision not to get a kitten because of the risk and higher stress for us all involved, and because we have seen heightened aggression from her in regards to kittens before. We went with the easiest type of cat to introduce to a cat like her. Adult male, slightly larger, mellow, about the same age. Took five months of itty bitty baby steps, but they will now play and occasionally lay near each other without aggression from our female. More importantly, she has just begun to allow him access to us and our attention/affection. Big step for her. She has never displayed any behavior to indicate she has a mental illness/imbalance/health issue, and has never been aggressive with a human (though we bought thick gloves when we adopted the male just in case he got out and a fight broke out, because she definitely could do damage if caught in a high-stress moment like that).
So basically, I would just personally encourage your friend to euthanize for reasons regarding improper urination (again, if the health of the cat has been checked, if the box is cleaned often) such as health issues, unsanitary living conditions, unlikely to be rehomed or increased chance of abuse if rehomed. Those will be solid, unchanging reasons, where as a seemingly hurried decision made because of a deeply disturbing incident for a person to watch may change more with time. If it was just this case of aggression, it would be possible to either manage the aggression easily (one cat household since no other or unpredictable aggression was described), or to rehome to a home that no kidding knew she should be an only cat. If euthanizing, I personally would go with reasons I knew wouldn't change once the initial shock and anger wore off. Best of luck to your friend in dealing with this stressful situation.
- Aug 8, 2011
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there is a moderately rare neurological condition, I can't remember the name, that can occur in cats. my sister the vet diagnosed one of my cats with it.
cats with this condition, when they get overstimulated, freak, go wild, get agressive with *everything* that crosses their path, tear about wildly and are dangerous to handle. the description above sounds very like our cat KrazyKat.
several characteristic behaviors that are typical, but not mandatory, for this condition:
1) tearing about attacking things, climbing things, terrorizing everything that she encountered. not your typical cat play. not even cranked-up cat play, but terrorizing things. in this mode, fighting with the other cats was *clearly* not play and could result in serious bites.
2) usually right before a bout of this behavior, the cat's pupils will blow wide open (to the point where you see almost no iris) and stay blown open for most of the duration of the crazy behavior
3) the cat may have a bout of twitchys right before blowing up... ours would twitch her skin here and there all over for maybe 15 or 30 seconds before she'd whack out.
4) you absolutely could not handle this cat while she was in one of these attacks, you would get completely shredded.
5) attacks would last maybe 5-10 minutes. the after effects, including stalking around hissing and growling for no apparent reason would last for maybe 15 or 20 minutes more.
"crazed" is definitely a word I'd use to describe this cat's behavior during these attacks.
we discovered we could bring on an attack by very softly petting her. my sister says this is not unusual... solid heavy touch, even thumping on her like you would a big dog was fine, but a couple of light strokes and she'd start to twich and then her pupils would blow and then you just had to wait out the storm. stroking on her back and haunches was more likely to set it off.
changes to her environment, like moving to a new house or adding a new cat aggrivated the number of attacks. they also provoked more 'bad' behavior like peeing on the laundry and scratching on things that were on the no-scratch list.
my hubby and I have both had a LOT of cats in our lives and these attacks were not like any cat behavoir we've ever seen. we've got fully ferral barn cats, and an in-and-out cat named Monster for reasons he rightly earned, and even these don't have that freaked out, dangerous, rabid kind of behavior that we saw in KrazyKat when she was cranked up.
anyway, if this sounds like Kit, you might have a chat with your vet about it. I don't believe there's any treatment, but if it's what you've got going on, she may not be safe to keep, and she probably will never adapt effectively to things like changing household situations and other cats. at any rate, if that's the problem, at least you can make informed decisions.
there is a moderately rare neurological condition, I can't remember the name, that can occur in cats. my sister the vet diagnosed one of my cats with it.
cats with this condition, when they get overstimulated, freak, go wild, get agressive with *everything* that crosses their path, tear about wildly and are dangerous to handle. the description above sounds very like our cat KrazyKat.
several characteristic behaviors that are typical, but not mandatory, for this condition:
1) tearing about attacking things, climbing things, terrorizing everything that she encountered. not your typical cat play. not even cranked-up cat play, but terrorizing things. in this mode, fighting with the other cats was *clearly* not play and could result in serious bites.
2) usually right before a bout of this behavior, the cat's pupils will blow wide open (to the point where you see almost no iris) and stay blown open for most of the duration of the crazy behavior
3) the cat may have a bout of twitchys right before blowing up... ours would twitch her skin here and there all over for maybe 15 or 30 seconds before she'd whack out.
4) you absolutely could not handle this cat while she was in one of these attacks, you would get completely shredded.
5) attacks would last maybe 5-10 minutes. the after effects, including stalking around hissing and growling for no apparent reason would last for maybe 15 or 20 minutes more.
"crazed" is definitely a word I'd use to describe this cat's behavior during these attacks.
we discovered we could bring on an attack by very softly petting her. my sister says this is not unusual... solid heavy touch, even thumping on her like you would a big dog was fine, but a couple of light strokes and she'd start to twich and then her pupils would blow and then you just had to wait out the storm. stroking on her back and haunches was more likely to set it off.
changes to her environment, like moving to a new house or adding a new cat aggrivated the number of attacks. they also provoked more 'bad' behavior like peeing on the laundry and scratching on things that were on the no-scratch list.
my hubby and I have both had a LOT of cats in our lives and these attacks were not like any cat behavoir we've ever seen. we've got fully ferral barn cats, and an in-and-out cat named Monster for reasons he rightly earned, and even these don't have that freaked out, dangerous, rabid kind of behavior that we saw in KrazyKat when she was cranked up.
anyway, if this sounds like Kit, you might have a chat with your vet about it. I don't believe there's any treatment, but if it's what you've got going on, she may not be safe to keep, and she probably will never adapt effectively to things like changing household situations and other cats. at any rate, if that's the problem, at least you can make informed decisions.
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- Aug 8, 2011
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here we go, I looked it up:
FELINE HYPERESTHESIA
http://www.petplace.com/cats/feline-hyperesthesia/page1.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feline_Hyperesthesia_Syndrome
our cat never had seisures that are sometimes associate with this, so that's not always present.
anyway, it's a thought about what might be at the root of the problem.
FELINE HYPERESTHESIA
http://www.petplace.com/cats/feline-hyperesthesia/page1.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feline_Hyperesthesia_Syndrome
our cat never had seisures that are sometimes associate with this, so that's not always present.
anyway, it's a thought about what might be at the root of the problem.
I don't think this cat has feline hyperesthesia---hope I spelled that right---I think she was just pi##ed about a new cat in her territory. Didn't the OP say the cat is very loveablewith humans, especially her owner who she adores? I am almost get the impression---maybe wrongly so----that the OP just has it in for this cat because she wants her friend to keep the cute little kitten and be able to foster other cats.
As far as making the cat be a barn cat, she could adjust----I have a 3 yr.-old neutered male cat that was formerly a housecat out living in my goat barn. It was a VERY long adjustment for him----at least 3 months. He had to be kept in the goat barn in an extra-large Vari-Kennel with food/water/litter-box for almost that entire 3 months. But it can be done. I just don't see the need inthis case, unless the cat is going to continue peeing on the bed after the kitten is gone-----didn't she just start peeing on the OWNER'S bed after the kitten arrived?
I'm not going to judge the owner for how he kept the cats separated, but I think, once again, here is where an extra-large dog crate would have been a better choice----the cats can interact visually, and yet not do harm to one another. I did this in the past with 2 adult cats, and again, the time-period for adjust can be seemingly interminable.
Hope your friend makes the best decision for himself. Maybe he shouldn't foster anyway given the trouble he's already having. Fostering isn't easy, and all the anumlas won't live happily together like in some Disney movie.
As far as making the cat be a barn cat, she could adjust----I have a 3 yr.-old neutered male cat that was formerly a housecat out living in my goat barn. It was a VERY long adjustment for him----at least 3 months. He had to be kept in the goat barn in an extra-large Vari-Kennel with food/water/litter-box for almost that entire 3 months. But it can be done. I just don't see the need inthis case, unless the cat is going to continue peeing on the bed after the kitten is gone-----didn't she just start peeing on the OWNER'S bed after the kitten arrived?
I'm not going to judge the owner for how he kept the cats separated, but I think, once again, here is where an extra-large dog crate would have been a better choice----the cats can interact visually, and yet not do harm to one another. I did this in the past with 2 adult cats, and again, the time-period for adjust can be seemingly interminable.
Hope your friend makes the best decision for himself. Maybe he shouldn't foster anyway given the trouble he's already having. Fostering isn't easy, and all the anumlas won't live happily together like in some Disney movie.
After thinking about all this for a little bit, I feel I must justify all that I said. I'm sure there will be many disgruntled remarks to my reply.
First, I get the feeling---again, maybe wrongly, that the OP keeps adding bits of new info. in order to get the response she/he wants. Then she can tell her friend, "See, everyone on BYC thinks she should be euthanised/made a barn cat." I'm not sure why the OP would do this, as she did state that she hand-raised this cat.
Second, I have kind of been in this situation myself. I took in a pregnant stray cat that was hanging around a friend's trailer-court---it was the beginning of winter and no one else would take the cat in. The cat was naturally defensive around my 3 adult females and my 3 dogs, but her behavior increased 10-fold once she had her kitten (she had 2, but one was stillborn). I tried and tried to find somone to take her that had no other animals----she was so ferocious that even the dogs were afraid to come in my bedroom where the cat stayed most of the time, and the cats all skulked around like there was a coyote in the house. I eventually had to take her to be euthanised at the shelter. It was very sad, but she was not my first and only cat----I had had the other 3 a long time----one for 11 years. Plus there were all 3 rescue dogs. So, you see, my case was different, so I don't recommend the same outcome.
Third, I don't think the OP's friend should foster----she said he has a small apartment. How will that work? And remember, the kitten is going to grow up to be a full-grown cat too. I think the friend has already done a wonderful thing by giving the first cat a wonderful home----why toss her aside after 2 years for a newer model? Like I had said in an earlier reply, sometimes you can only save a single animal----but how wonderful it would be if every person just saved one animal? After all, it's not like this cat is just going around attakcing anything and everything around her----it would be very different if she was just dashing out and viciously attakcing any people that happened to be visiting, but she isn't. What she did was a very natural response to an uncomfortable situation. After all, what would most women do if Hubby brought home a younger version and said, "Here's my new wife---now play nice." And it is similair to that in an animal's mind.
First, I get the feeling---again, maybe wrongly, that the OP keeps adding bits of new info. in order to get the response she/he wants. Then she can tell her friend, "See, everyone on BYC thinks she should be euthanised/made a barn cat." I'm not sure why the OP would do this, as she did state that she hand-raised this cat.
Second, I have kind of been in this situation myself. I took in a pregnant stray cat that was hanging around a friend's trailer-court---it was the beginning of winter and no one else would take the cat in. The cat was naturally defensive around my 3 adult females and my 3 dogs, but her behavior increased 10-fold once she had her kitten (she had 2, but one was stillborn). I tried and tried to find somone to take her that had no other animals----she was so ferocious that even the dogs were afraid to come in my bedroom where the cat stayed most of the time, and the cats all skulked around like there was a coyote in the house. I eventually had to take her to be euthanised at the shelter. It was very sad, but she was not my first and only cat----I had had the other 3 a long time----one for 11 years. Plus there were all 3 rescue dogs. So, you see, my case was different, so I don't recommend the same outcome.
Third, I don't think the OP's friend should foster----she said he has a small apartment. How will that work? And remember, the kitten is going to grow up to be a full-grown cat too. I think the friend has already done a wonderful thing by giving the first cat a wonderful home----why toss her aside after 2 years for a newer model? Like I had said in an earlier reply, sometimes you can only save a single animal----but how wonderful it would be if every person just saved one animal? After all, it's not like this cat is just going around attakcing anything and everything around her----it would be very different if she was just dashing out and viciously attakcing any people that happened to be visiting, but she isn't. What she did was a very natural response to an uncomfortable situation. After all, what would most women do if Hubby brought home a younger version and said, "Here's my new wife---now play nice." And it is similair to that in an animal's mind.
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