Cesar millan v. clicker training

[CountryMom]

Quote:
Do you have examples of dogs Cesar has caused a serious problem with? Or, are you referring to someone you thought was using his method? I've watched all his shows, and never has he done anything that caused any dog to suffer in any way on the show. Are you privy to inside information that can be verified?

E-collars don't just suppress behavior. They are used to direct behavior. They grab the attention of the dog so it can then concentrate on the command. They are tremendous tools in the hands of a knowledgeable person. When used properly the dog is never hurt and from everything I've seen, they seem to enjoy the training session. They will also learn the lesson very quickly. In my opinion, people who believe that proper training should be only be positive in nature, simply have an agenda they're pushing. Optimal training will employ positive and negative rewards.

Amen McSpin.

Many a collar used on a stallion to correct behaviors in stalls also. The biggest plus with that is the human is not usually within sight so the stallion learns to behave without human contact.

I just got a call the other day from a lady trying only positive training methods and even tried clicker training. Seems the filly reared up and struck her in the face. Obviously they do not work for every situation and now I will be correcting this disaster. Sure it isn't a dog, but the theroy is very similar. And if she continues to rear and strike I will be rolling her! Of course a whole lot different to do in a horse than simply putting them on the ground.

Would love to see this clicker or passive only positive training work with such highly aggressive and dangerous animals, but then I wouldn't make any money fixing these problems. Reality and ideal thinking don't always meet up.

 

[schellie69]

I take in abused dogs, and I had one dog that was almost to the point of having to be put to sleep until I saw Cesar's show, I tried some of his methods and guess what the dog learned quickly that the humans are the alpha and now he is a happy dog, I use both Cesar's methods and some of Victoria's methods positive reinforcement and the submissive when needed it has worked wonders on the dogs they learn quickly that I am the one in control I am using these methods to teach the dogs with the chickens and so far I am have great success with them I think each dog is different and the dogs Cesar is working with are at that point of either they get fixed by Cesar or they are put to death, and the pack talk does work I also agree with the humans having to be stable also you have a stressed or angry human the dogs pick up on that I know when we have certain people come over and my dogs behavior changes and they start showing signs of stress and aggression I think if the household is stable and they know who is boss that shows. I have never used the clicker training positive reinforcement either treats or verbal and physical yes no clicker I think each trainer offers something different each person needs to find what works for them and their dog. If people bring a pit bull into a house hold that can't handle that type of dog its the humans fault not the dogs. but the dog is the one that pays for it so I blame the humans with the problem dog for not fixing the problem and not doing the work it takes to make the dog a stable loving animal. IMO

 

[Redyre Rotties]

Quote:
Do you have examples of dogs Cesar has caused a serious problem with? Or, are you referring to someone you thought was using his method? I've watched all his shows, and never has he done anything that caused any dog to suffer in any way on the show. Are you privy to inside information that can be verified?

E-collars don't just suppress behavior. They are used to direct behavior. They grab the attention of the dog so it can then concentrate on the command. They are tremendous tools in the hands of a knowledgeable person. When used properly the dog is never hurt and from everything I've seen, they seem to enjoy the training session. They will also learn the lesson very quickly. In my opinion, people who believe that proper training should be only be positive in nature, simply have an agenda they're pushing. Optimal training will employ positive and negative rewards.

Amen McSpin.

Many a collar used on a stallion to correct behaviors in stalls also. The biggest plus with that is the human is not usually within sight so the stallion learns to behave without human contact.

I just got a call the other day from a lady trying only positive training methods and even tried clicker training. Seems the filly reared up and struck her in the face. Obviously they do not work for every situation and now I will be correcting this disaster. Sure it isn't a dog, but the theroy is very similar. And if she continues to rear and strike I will be rolling her! Of course a whole lot different to do in a horse than simply putting them on the ground.

Would love to see this clicker or passive only positive training work with such highly aggressive and dangerous animals, but then I wouldn't make any money fixing these problems. Reality and ideal thinking don't always meet up.

How do they train marine mammals? You know, the ones that weigh tons and cannot wear a collar or etc?

This type of training DOES work. Dogs are not horses. Altho dogs can be dangerous in certain situations, not like a 1000+ lb animal who can crush your head like a melon with one blow of their hoof, so I understand that different methods may be used with them.

I have large powerful dogs who are known for being stand up characters.

I do not find I have to use punitive methods to train them.

JMO as always.

 

[redhen]

Quote:
Amen McSpin.

Many a collar used on a stallion to correct behaviors in stalls also. The biggest plus with that is the human is not usually within sight so the stallion learns to behave without human contact.

I just got a call the other day from a lady trying only positive training methods and even tried clicker training. Seems the filly reared up and struck her in the face. Obviously they do not work for every situation and now I will be correcting this disaster. Sure it isn't a dog, but the theroy is very similar. And if she continues to rear and strike I will be rolling her! Of course a whole lot different to do in a horse than simply putting them on the ground.

Would love to see this clicker or passive only positive training work with such highly aggressive and dangerous animals, but then I wouldn't make any money fixing these problems. Reality and ideal thinking don't always meet up.

How do they train marine mammals? You know, the ones that weigh tons and cannot wear a collar or etc?

This type of training DOES work. Dogs are not horses. Altho dogs can be dangerous in certain situations, not like a 1000+ lb animal who can crush your head like a melon with one blow of their hoof, so I understand that different methods may be used with them.

I have large powerful dogs who are known for being stand up characters.

I do not find I have to use punitive methods to train them.

JMO as always.

yeah but.. Shamu just killed a trainer a couple of months back... (actually shamu wasnt the whales name..i forget it..) anyways...
Whales/dolphins are SO SO SO much smarter than dogs.... there is no comparison.. honestly.. they are not even close mentally.
Therefore they CAN be trained differently than dogs and horses... they are nothing alike in their thinking and learning capabilities...
Just like pigs and dogs train differently... you cant really compare 2 different species.... Know what i mean?
just saying..

 

[CountryMom]

Marine Mammals such as whales have a vocal language much more advanced than horses and dogs. They speak with vocals and sounds. Therefore, clicker type training does work well with them. A lot of them, like whales, are beyond what a human can physically train with leashes or lead ropes. So yes, it does work, but for a different species. And in the case of the one that killed the trainer, a good reminder of their size and the fact that they are a wild animal not domesticated.

Dogs and Horses are very much similar in the pack and herd talk or language. They train their pack or herd order (and for benefit of the site pecking order) by body language. Vocals are in addition, but not a sole means of communications. And really, some of the most dangerous dogs and horses I have known were actually some of the more intelligent ones of their species. The problem being as they will out think and out body language talk and read humans. It is much easier to train a horse vocals once they have been trained with body language. They can learn, just like a dog understands vocal commands, but they learn it through association with body language.

Basic principle of training is reward for right answer (and I do not advocate treating in horses as a reward) and correction for wrong answer. Corrections can be as little as a certain body posture and as sever as rolling or dropping in horses. It is a dominating correction because the animals has learned to dominate the human and has lot respect. It isn't something beaten into them by any means. I surely have never seen Cesar beat a dog. And in most horses I deal with, dominating is simply making them move and then they give in. In such situations as I am talking about with this filly, she will never understand that until she has learned that humans are to be respected.

 

[Moabite]

My Boston Terrier (BT) and have started obedience training. The instructors offer different techniques for various problems. I've read Ceasar's book and I recommend it as it is interesting. The clicker method works too. Get all the facts first. I trained a problem German Shepherd/Rottweiler cross with the Kohler Method (which is how the WWII dogs where trained) and gained complete off-leash control in 6 weeks from a book. The relationship I had with that dog because of the so called cruel training methods made us best friends and saved her life many times. The reason I'm taking a class, is because the Kohler method isn't necessary for the BT so I needed to be re-trained. The dog learns so much faster then I can.

Remember: "Training is supposed to be fun but it wasn't fun learning to not harass bees"

 

[Redyre Rotties]

img/smilies/big_smile.png" alt="big_smile" />">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wLikusmCEA

 

[redhen]

Quote:
Aww! cute horsie...
I believe she was using spurs...
What are those for? Do they hurt the horses?? they look awful pointy to me..ugh...
but i know nothing about horses at all...
I think that horses are so beautiful, but they scare me for some reason...

 

[Redyre Rotties]

I love Stacy Westfall.

 

[ninny]

Don't they train tigers and such with clicker training? I thought i saw a show where they were doing that. I've heard of the Kohler Method. It was in one of our search and resuce books. They were talking about how the dogs learned how to brake the system. The dogs would stop tracking so the correction was to pinch their ears. So the dogs learn as long if they walked around with their heads down they didnt get pinched. But the handlers caught on to what they were doing so they stopped using that method. They went to postive training with much better results.

Every dog needs to know its place in the pack under you. IMO the best way to train is postive with corrections.