Chicken Breeds vs Chicken Types.

[Celtic Hill]

(Type as in shape and style of the bird)

So a Breed is "lineage; stock; strain", with chickens there is no governing body that records the linage of a bird. So im questioning why people call a chicken a certain breed if there is some other breed in the immediate linage (4 Generations). I could breed something using 3 different breeds and show it as an austrolorp, when it's grandmother could be a Barred Rock. So it seems were all breeding towards a type, something that has a written standard and looks like that, but the genetic make up could be anything. I know when working with Phoenix people will use Dutch Bantams or White Face Spanish as an outcross to incorporate new colors, but then you just have a cross bred, at what point is it a full Phoenix? There is no group that says "No bird is a full Phoenix unless it has 75% Pure Bred Phoenix in it"

With cows, I think for a cow to be considered a jersey it needs to have atleast 95% registered Jersey blood to be a Purebred Jersey.

I can SAY that my Austrolorps are 100% but who would ever know if i used some other duel purpose breed a few generations back to help with type or something. Since there is no "Body" (Club, Association, ect) that keeps track of lineage, then all i have is an Austrolorp Type Bird.

We are all just breeding towards a type that has a name, not a breed.

What do you guys think and feel about this? How can you have a "Breed" with out any kind of Association recording the genetics?

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Please dont' think i am generalizing about someone or all of us, I don't intend to offend anyone by my statements above, its just something i have always wondered.

-Ian

 

[Ridgerunner]

I can't argue with anything you say. One of the expectations is that a certain breed will breed true. Im very sure this is a requirement for a breed to become recognized. But once the SOP is set, there is no absolute requirement for a bird to breed true. I am not aware of any breed police that disqualifies birds at shows because of genetics. It is all about meeting the visual standards.

Maybe you are mixing up showing birds and raising certain breeds of birds. Those are not necessarily the same thing.

 

[Celtic Hill]

Quote:
Im not confused about anything, just this is is a thought I have always had. And you brought up a good point! For a "Breed" of bird to get accepted into the APA they have to breed true, and then who's to say after that they dont? Why does this requirement of breeding true stop after the breed is recognized?

 

[DTchickens]

I guess people never really worried about it, I personally hate out-crosses (to an extent.) I believe it ruins the breed, but know other people feel OK about this, and that is fine, it is about if you enjoy your birds or not. Doesn't matter what other people think truthfully.

Most people go by this rule, if you do a out-cross for genetics or colors or whatever. You must breed back at least 6 generations to the original breed, and the birds must consistently produce offspring according to their standard.

Rare breeds are at times being crossed, some are OK in my opinion, others are not. For example take the Kraienkoppe, a breed I'd like to raise someday.. I could take a breed like Buckeye, or maybe a barred rock, or Silkie, or whatever and breed into them and back out- but I don't believe in such crossings because of "alien blood." However, if I raise the Kraienkoppe's and I feel they need a dosage of new blood I have no problem crossing in Malay, or Shamo because those breeds are in the bloodlines, and I would still be breeding back to the Kraienkoppe blood.

-Daniel

 

[Celtic Hill]

Humm interesting, thanks for the reply! I was hoping someone would step in with some insight like you!

Shamo's they keep track of bloodlines?

 

[Illia]

Quote:
Yep. Any gamefowl, whether it be American or Oriental, are known by their bloodlines. American Gamefowl especially are named after their lines. Remember, the SOP isn't the most important thing with them, it is their behavior and their history.

 

[Celtic Hill]

Quote:
Yep. Any gamefowl, whether it be American or Oriental, are known by their bloodlines. American Gamefowl especially are named after their lines. Remember, the SOP isn't the most important thing with them, it is their behavior and their history.

So you guys actually have pedigrees on your birds and someone could say "Well this here chicks is sired by 'mr.super chicken' ." and people would know what they were talking about?

 

[DTchickens]

Quote:
Gamefowl breeders are interesting, they don't have some gigantic industry to keep track of bloodlines.. But most breeders can tell you who, what, when, and where AND if something were crossed in.. Like

My Shamo's came from Prariechiken and Fowlafoot, I have one pure Horst Schmudde hen that came originally from Jim Zook. Mr. Zook got his start in Shamo's when his father bought the line from Horst Schmudde during the 1940's. Horst Schmudde was a large importer of fowl, he imported most of the Oriental gamefowl I'd say (or at least his own lines of every breed) from the original Countries. My line though has recently been crossed with Will Robert's, and Dr. Sapaphor lines since that was the mixture of the original cock. To our knowledge, nothing has ever been added to the Shamo bloodline, at least not by recent breeders (though I can't find much on Will Robert's/Dr. Sapaphor.)

I am thinking that Horst Schmudde added Brazilian, or possibly Thai to them though.. The Shamo's from Horst's line show the barring gene which isn't supposed to be in them. If anything un-type like pops out I plan to cull it, and I plan to get blood I know is for sure pure because it was imported from a famous breeder in Europe, who is very strict on not crossing Shamo to any other breeds.

If you get into American gamefowl, you can find step by step breeding's of the developments of many strains/lines where breeders kept records. Most people find it rather interesting how much history is in the American gamefowl strains, and I too, have always enjoyed researching it all.

 

[Celtic Hill]

Quote:
Gamefowl breeders are interesting, they don't have some gigantic industry to keep track of bloodlines.. But most breeders can tell you who, what, when, and where AND if something were crossed in.. Like

My Shamo's came from Prariechiken and Fowlafoot, I have one pure Horst Schmudde hen that came originally from Jim Zook. Mr. Zook got his start in Shamo's when his father bought the line from Horst Schmudde during the 1940's. Horst Schmudde was a large importer of fowl, he imported most of the Oriental gamefowl I'd say (or at least his own lines of every breed) from the original Countries. My line though has recently been crossed with Will Robert's, and Dr. Sapaphor lines since that was the mixture of the original cock. To our knowledge, nothing has ever been added to the Shamo bloodline, at least not by recent breeders (though I can't find much on Will Robert's/Dr. Sapaphor.)

I am thinking that Horst Schmudde added Brazilian, or possibly Thai to them though.. The Shamo's from Horst's line show the barring gene which isn't supposed to be in them. If anything un-type like pops out I plan to cull it, and I plan to get blood I know is for sure pure because it was imported from a famous breeder in Europe, who is very strict on not crossing Shamo to any other breeds.

If you get into American gamefowl, you can find step by step breeding's of the developments of many strains/lines where breeders kept records. Most people find it rather interesting how much history is in the American gamefowl strains, and I too, have always enjoyed researching it all.

Humm very interesting, so bloodlines for birds is more who created them, vs the acutally parents of birds?

 

[DTchickens]

Quote:
Gamefowl breeders are interesting, they don't have some gigantic industry to keep track of bloodlines.. But most breeders can tell you who, what, when, and where AND if something were crossed in.. Like

My Shamo's came from Prariechiken and Fowlafoot, I have one pure Horst Schmudde hen that came originally from Jim Zook. Mr. Zook got his start in Shamo's when his father bought the line from Horst Schmudde during the 1940's. Horst Schmudde was a large importer of fowl, he imported most of the Oriental gamefowl I'd say (or at least his own lines of every breed) from the original Countries. My line though has recently been crossed with Will Robert's, and Dr. Sapaphor lines since that was the mixture of the original cock. To our knowledge, nothing has ever been added to the Shamo bloodline, at least not by recent breeders (though I can't find much on Will Robert's/Dr. Sapaphor.)

I am thinking that Horst Schmudde added Brazilian, or possibly Thai to them though.. The Shamo's from Horst's line show the barring gene which isn't supposed to be in them. If anything un-type like pops out I plan to cull it, and I plan to get blood I know is for sure pure because it was imported from a famous breeder in Europe, who is very strict on not crossing Shamo to any other breeds.

If you get into American gamefowl, you can find step by step breeding's of the developments of many strains/lines where breeders kept records. Most people find it rather interesting how much history is in the American gamefowl strains, and I too, have always enjoyed researching it all.

Humm very interesting, so bloodlines for birds is more who created them, vs the acutally parents of birds?

Usually, there are certain cases where it will say "The line started from a cock who won best variety five times, show champ twice, " etc. Or from a "Little blue hen, who was perfect in every aspect crossed over such and such cock." But even then, that would take a lot of time to explain step-by-step genealogy. If someone were to tell me my line started from "Big blue" (not an actual name, just using an example), I have no idea what that means since I didn't have personal experience with the bird. But if someone were to say it started from Jim Zook, who got it from Horst Schmudde, who imported the line from Japan from such and such breeder.. Even if I don't know the Japanese breeder, I know both Jim Zook and Horst Schmudde bred very good birds, so therefore I can trust my lines I say.

Now, there are breeders who do keep records of what birds are used in the breeding. But most of the time, this isn't a big issue. I can walk out on my yard and if you asked about a bird I personally bred, then I can tell you "Yes, he is out of (insert hen here, and if parent bird purchased from another breeder) I received from -" and if I know it "Who is the daughter/son of that cock/hen that they won best of breed with, at the show in (insert year)." etc.. It's just if you know that much info.

-Daniel