Chicken Genetics

[tadkerson]

Black copper marans should carry an E locus allele called birchen; they should have two of the alleles. The problem with the birchen allele is that in females they may show red stippling on their backs and if a melanizer is added to a line the females will tend to not have enough red in the hackles. All of the melanizers I have worked with will extend black into the hackles and into the back.

Another problem with marans is that many of them are not purebred at the E locus. Heterozygous extended black and birchen hens probably have the best balance of black verses red plumage.
Sometimes breeders run into heterozygous birchen and wheaten females that can cause real problems with a balance in black verses red. tooo much red stippling.

Tim

 

[Arielle]

Thanks Tim, that helps me better understand the BCM. ALways a challenge to have heterozygous genes. Much easier to have homozygous.

I have serveral mixed roosters completely unrelated to the BCM, yet look exactly alike. Fortunately the comb is the giveaway and the leg color. Is there other feathering colors, like on the wings, that differentiate the two? I guess I am asking because wheaten looks the same to me.

 

[tadkerson]

Wheaten should look very similar in most birds except in the games like cubalaya. Wheaten can be darker and lighter in color depending on the genetic make up of the birds.

You can get the same phenotype ( what the bird looks like) and the birds have a different genotype ( genetic make up).

This is especially true in crow wing and black birds. I think the standards should be dependent upon the genetic possibilities and not the expectations of a committee that sets a standard. It would make breeding the birds a lot easier.

Take for example the ameraucana. They insist on slate legs which is fine in most varieties but they will never produce a barred ameraucana because the barring gene removes most of the black pigment from the legs. They will have to go with white or near white or do not have barred ameraucana.

Tim

 

[Arielle]

A friend was kind enough to post a pic of a wheaten ameraucana, AND circle the coloring on the wing that makes it different from the black copper maran.

Is that all that really separates a wheaten marans and a black copper marans? And it begs the question is a BBR and the black copper marans the same genetically for color? Some of my marans boys have yellow leaking into their lower hackle feathers but all my BBR AMerauca crosses have even mohogany hackles.

 

[3riverschick]

A friend was kind enough to post a pic of a wheaten ameraucana, AND circle the coloring on the wing that makes it different from the black copper maran.

Is that all that really separates a wheaten marans and a black copper marans? And it begs the question is a BBR and the black copper marans the same genetically for color? Some of my marans boys have yellow leaking into their lower hackle feathers but all my BBR AMerauca crosses have even mohogany hackles.

wheaten is eWh/eWh locus. BCM is EE Locus.
BBR is e+/e+ locus. BBR in Marans is called "Golden Salmon". One should not cross locuses for best results.

 

[Henk69]

wheaten is eWh/eWh locus. BCM is EE Locus.
BBR is e+/e+ locus. BBR in Marans is called "Golden Salmon". One should not cross locuses for best results.

subsititute locus with allele or mutation.
Locus is the gene that they are all variations of. Meant is the location of the gene on the chromosome where all these options reside.

 

[Arielle]

Quote: Thanks 3riverschick! But how odd that the BCM looks exactly like my BBR mixed roosters. So confusing to a newbie. I'm sticking with BCM and some blue cuckoos. Adding wheaten would be too much! LOL GOlden Salmons must have other genes that modify the main color?
Another question--how is the brown of partridge made? Is it another allele?

Quote:

Yes, loci is the location on the chromosome. Alleles are the choices that can live there.


BBR is really a red chicken and marans(BC) is a black chicken. ANd yet they look exactly alike except for the wingcolor, the primaries.

OMG, the years of dedicated effort to breed fine chickens is AMAZING!

 

[tadkerson]

A black copper (BC) male is the crow wing phenotype and will not have red in the wing bay. While wheaten and black breasted red (BBR) males are a gold duck wing phenotype and will have some variation of red in the wing bays. The wheaten, BBR and BC should have a pyle zone that is some variation of a red color. All the male birds should look alike with the exception of the wing color. I do not know what the standard calls for with respect to the amount of copper color in the pyle zone of the BC. To reduce the amount of red in the BC males, melanizers would have to be added to the genotype of the BC.

Look at the females and you will see the difference in the genetics. BBR, wheaten and BC females look nothing alike. Also the genes in the breeds act differently when other genes are in the bird.

Hackle color has a genetic component also- I have seen no research that deals with the variations in hackle color as expressed by the gold allele. There is a little on melanizers but not the gold allele.

Tim

A friend was kind enough to post a pic of a wheaten ameraucana, AND circle the coloring on the wing that makes it different from the black copper maran.

Is that all that really separates a wheaten marans and a black copper marans? And it begs the question is a BBR and the black copper marans the same genetically for color? Some of my marans boys have yellow leaking into their lower hackle feathers but all my BBR AMerauca crosses have even mohogany hackles.

 

[Arielle]

A black copper (BC) male is the crow wing phenotype and will not have red in the wing bay. While wheaten and black breasted red (BBR) males are a gold duck wing phenotype and will have some variation of red in the wing bays. The wheaten, BBR and BC should have a pyle zone that is some variation of a red color. All the male birds should look alike with the exception of the wing color. I do not know what the standard calls for with respect to the amount of copper color in the pyle zone of the BC. To reduce the amount of red in the BC males, melanizers would have to be added to the genotype of the BC.

Look at the females and you will see the difference in the genetics. BBR, wheaten and BC females look nothing alike. Also the genes in the breeds act differently when other genes are in the bird.

Hackle color has a genetic component also- I have seen no research that deals with the variations in hackle color as expressed by the gold allele. There is a little on melanizers but not the gold allele.

Tim


Quote: Gold puts red in the hackles of both the male and female of the BCM. Even among my 4 BCM. from the same pen, the hackle color varies, 2 look like an even red , the other 2 have more yellow in the lowest feathers of the hackle. THe decription of the red is fairly complicated, using words like mahogany. I have learned in horses, you need to see a good example to understand the real meaning of the adjectives.

Snowbird--maybe you have some insight to share on this as well?

 

[Arielle]

Here is a related question. Someone crossed blue (marans?) on to cuckoo marans. I'm learning there are silver cuckoo and gold cuckoo. Red leakage has been mentioned. Can someone explain the dynamics at work here? If I breed the black cuckoo to the black cuckoo will they breed true? Was the red hiding in the black cuckoos any ways? I do like the blue cuckoo-- interesting to look at.