Chicken keeping without coops or with mutiple coops

[Shamo Hybrid]

The problem with this is............. where do you find the eggs?

 

[Shadrach]

Got them from the same vreeder but one is a blue ameracauna and one is a blue isbar. The isbar is MUCH smaller so I think he just yields all the time. Big roo has 5 hens, lil guy has 3, then 3 hens that kinda float around or sleep alone or with the Turkey. Not in a position to build dual coops at the moment, tho I plan to asap. I would prefer they all roost in a secure coop at night but I'm lucky to live in a spot with very few predators. My neighbors have a few dogs and there's a feral cat but my dog patrols the yard and sleeps near the coop now.

The cock to hen ratio seems good.
Here if a cock has at least 3 hens then he doesn’t actively go looking for more and that keeps the conflict low with the other cocks.
At the moment Tribe 2 and Tribe 3 cooperate to a certain extent in keeping the hens guarded and doing escort duties for the laying hens. Tribe 2 are Bantams of unknown origin while Tribe 3 comprises Bantam and Maran crosses and of course the Cock in Tribe 3 is considerably larger than the senior Bantam cock much like your situation.
There were some problems with the cocks fighting a few months ago, Tribe 2 lost it’s senior (8 years old and very respected by all the tribes) cock Harold and Harold’s son, Punch isn’t the cock his dad was so we had a bit of a power struggle

I had a spell of letting the Bantams roost in the trees. Strangely, despite having lots of climbing night predators only one pullet got killed. I watched a feral cat try to grab one of the hens one night but the hen was far enough out on a branch that the cat wouldn’t risk the branch not taking its weight and eventually gave up. The reason I had to learn how to get them into coops at night was the noise; other people who live here were being woken up at 4.30am and weren’t impressed.

Strange you’ve got 3 floating hens. Are they a different breed to the rest? Have they had a permanent cock?

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

[Shadrach]

The problem with this is............. where do you find the eggs?

I work outside mostly and you learn to listen to hens making an escort call.
I know which hen is calling and watch for her cock when he goes to collect her.
This narrows the search area a lot and most of the hens have favorite laying spots.
I probably lose a third of the eggs laid, but for me it's not about the eggs, I'm trying to understand their behavior.

 

[Pugsabi]

I’m interested in any experiences that people have had keeping chickens without a coop.
There are a number of farms and smallholdings locally here in Catalonia, Spain that have been keeping chickens for generations without purpose built coops.
4 kilometres down the mountain where i live there are 9 chickens who roost up a tree at night.
Across the valley there are a number of farms where the chickens roost in open barns, up trees, and in spare rooms in the house.
I’m particularly interested in hearing from people who have mixed breeds living in such conditions
I realise that many people will consider keeping chickens in this manner irresponsible but chickens are kept in similar conditions all over the world and have been for generations.
The chicken lays all those eggs because in ‘natural’ conditions few chicks survive.
I also realise that many breeds now can’t get up a tree because of human interference by target breeding for particular characteristics; heavy meat breeds and some dual purpose breeds for examples.

I’m using a multiple coop system at the moment; a coop per tribe, but the chickens don’t always come home and the Bantams in particular go up the trees every night. This isn’t a problem, they come down when I call them (mostly) and go into their coop but it does demonstrate that the Bantams and the cross breeds still have the instinct to sleep in the trees.

It seems to me that a lot of ‘old knowledge’ based on generations of experience and observation has been forgotten as the chicken became product and egg and meat production became more important than the long term welfare of the chicken.

There are a few pieces of old knowledge that I have picked up as I gathered information for my book that reading some of the problems on this forum might be worth bearing in mind.

1) Don’t mix breeds
2) One cock for every 3 to 5 hens
3) Provide lots of cover, bushes, trees, plants even man made shelters
4) Chickens fight but fights in the family or tribe tend not to be serious while fights between cocks and hens from other tribes often are.

My mother was born in Dominican Republic and their chickens don't not have a coop, they slept in the trees. However DR is an island and they don't have the predators that we have here in Texas. I keep a coop because if I didn't I would have any chickens left! We have hawks, owls, snakes, opossums, weasels, racoons, and coyote just in my neighborhood! I don't even live out in the country. So unless I want to give out free chicken dinners I have to keep a coop. Plus in my area it's illegal not to have one, if you keep chickens.

 

[Shadrach]

My mother was born in Dominican Republic and their chickens don't not have a coop, they slept in the trees. However DR is an island and they don't have the predators that we have here in Texas. I keep a coop because if I didn't I would have any chickens left! We have hawks, owls, snakes, opossums, weasels, racoons, and coyote just in my neighborhood! I don't even live out in the country. So unless I want to give out free chicken dinners I have to keep a coop. Plus in my area it's illegal not to have one, if you keep chickens.

There are plenty of predators here, humans are the most common (a point often overlooked on this forum and others. Really unpleasant the human, pretends to be the chickens friend and steals its eggs. Forces the chicken to live in coops so it can sneak in at night and catch one because it couldn’t catch one out in the open). The next most dangerous is a large hawk (Goss Hawk) that comes down from the Pyrenees late autumn and returns in the spring. I’ve only had one hen that has survived a Goss Hawk attack. Weasels, dangerous for pullets and cockerels but because of the way the weasel hunts (tries to get behind the prey and grab a mouthful to avoid the beak and claws) if the grown hens and cocks make a run for it with the weasel hanging on they usually shake the weasel off. I’ve got three hens here at the moment with sore arses and no tail feathers. There are buzzards but generally the are carrion eaters; they’ll have a go if they think a chicken is injured. Feral mink, rare but deadly. Fagina, think large mink with a flat face. Foxes, but they mostly hunt at night and despite some silly stories aren’t very good at climbing trees. Feral cats, wild boar which don’t eat chickens but have destroyed coops and exposed the chickens to predation. Falcons, super fast but there are easier things to take on than a chicken for their size….


When I moved here to manage the land and animals the people who own the property had no idea how many chickens they lost. They just grabbed some eggs put them in an incubator and made some more…..they’re city people who inherited money and came here to live the rural life. Unfortunately there are more and more people like this buying up old farm properties and then carrying on their city style lives but want to keep animals because that’s the life style. There was no one here most days and of course the animals and land got neglected and an awful lot of creatures died or got kept in disgusting conditions.

When these old farm house were still working farms, while the animal care may need meet the standards most on this forum try to reach, the animals were much better protected because there were always people around outside and the animals had real value. Here for example the chickens used to live in a brick built shed right next to the house. There are still a few old school farm houses in the local village with chickens wandering around the yard, mingling with goats, sheep, dogs etc and while they lose the occasional chicken the loss rate is minimal compared to what was going on here and in many other old farm houses bought by city people.


Ask older Catalan farming people here if they build coops, feed their chickens special diets, or take their chicken to the vet when one falls ill, they’ll look at you as if they’re talking to a mad man. But they do value their animals, they make their living from them, or at least used to.

Many of the chickens kept by these indigenous smallholders are free range; it’s cheap.

 

[Shadrach]

This is Cillin, the main man of Tribe 1 after shaking off a weasel.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I grew up on the type of farm you are describing. We had a hen house where most of the chickens slept and most laid eggs, but many slept in trees. As a kid it was my job to find as many of the nests not in the hen house as I could. I found most of them but not all. Occasionally a broody hen would show up with a brood of chicks. I remember two serious predator attacks from childhood until I left the farm for college at 18, a fox and a dog, both of which were shot. The chickens fed themselves in the good weather months. During winter, mainly when snow was on the ground, we supplemented their feed with corn (maize) that we grew ourselves. In our climate there were not a lot of snow days. Many people would be amazed at how well they can forage though having cattle and horses provided them additional forage in winter. In winter kitchen wastes were thrown out where the chickens could find them. Other times of the year we'd have pigs that got all the kitchen wastes.

This forum is called backyard chickens, not farmyard chickens. The vast majority of people do not have the conditions required to keep chickens this way. They don't have the forage or shelter required. A whole lot keep a few chickens in a small suburban backyard, usually in a small coop and run where they micromanage everything the chickens eat. The chickens are sometimes as much a pet as a family dog. People often want the absolute best for those chickens, the best food, safety, and living conditions. They do not have a lot in common with how small farmers have kept chickens for thousands of years. They have different predator pressure than farmers that have managed chickens for generations.

I'll try to comment on your points.

1) Don’t mix breeds

Why not? What breed are the chickens you see at all those at those Spanish farms? Dad's chickens in Appalachia were what you called a barnyard mix. They had some game in them but every five to eight years Dad would bring home some chicks, I remember Dominique and New Hampshire, when he wanted to renew genetic diversity and try to improve the quality of his flock.

2) One cock for every 3 to 5 hens

Dad generally kept one rooster with 25 to 30 hens unless he was raising a replacement cockerel, then he'd have two for a while. Practically all the eggs were fertile. What kind of male-female ratios do you see on those Catalonian farms? Why do you feel a 3 to 5 female per male ratio is beneficial?

3) Provide lots of cover, bushes, trees, plants even man made shelters

Agree, this in important. So is predator management.

4) Chickens fight but fights in the family or tribe tend not to be serious while fights between cocks and hens from other tribes often are.

Interesting comment. How many serious fights between hens and roosters have you actually seen with that kind of room? If you are talking about pullets and cockerels maybe. But with sufficient room I'd question now much fighting you are likely to see between mature hens and mature roosters, whether between the same or different tribe. You may see a rooster force mate a resistant hen but to me that is not serious fighting.

 

[Shadrach]

Great post. Thank you.
I can't answer all your points, direct and implied at the moment.

"the forum is called backyard chickens not farmyard chickens"
A bit mean but I take your point. The impression I get is there are all types of chicken keepers here. Certainly from some of the pictures I've seen you would be stretching the point beyond credulity if you called the areas shown back yards.

"The vast majority of people do not have the conditions required to keep chickens this way"

I don't accept this, or maybe I don't understand your point.
Many people may not have the room to keep 30+ chickens free range as your father used to (sounds like a great childhood) but many could keep a small tribe, say a cock and three hens free range; the range just wont be that big.

"People often want the absolute best for those chickens, the best food, safety, and living conditions"

Very difficult to answer this without opening up a massive debate about what people want is often not what's best for the chicken.
However, I agree with you from what I've read so far; it's one of the reasons I joined the site. The articles I've read and most of the posts, seem to have the interest of the chicken as a baseline.
I spent my childhood on a farm much as you describe and more recently became interested enough in chicken behavior to write a book about it. I've been studying the chickens here for almost eight years now and this is the only forum concerned with chickens I've joined. So, if I come over as critical, my apologies, but if I come over as idealistic, you'll have to cope with it, or ignore me

I'll answer your last point now and try to address the others another day.

"How many serious fights between hens and roosters have you actually seen with that kind of room?"
Quite a few.
The worst, a tribe leadership fight between 4 incubator hatched cocks. One cock wouldn't back down and despite breaking the fight up maybe a half a dozen times, this one cock just wouldn't back off. We eat him in the end. One of the other cocks died from a heart attack during the fight.
I call that serious.
I call it serious when blood is being spilt, pieces of comb and wattle are being ripped, or bitten off, and claw and spur marks are visible under the feathers.
I used to be outside most of the day and as I've mentioned elsewhere the smallholding is 12.5 acres but the chickens normal ranging covers about 4 acres. Each tribe has it's territory and where the territories cross and at particular flash point areas such as the sheepshed and the compost heaps and feeding points is where fights tend to occur. You can hear the cocks making the sound that indicates another cock is too close a long way a way. If I hear this sound I go to investigate.
The fights between hens of different tribes are less common,maybe four bad ones since I've been here. They usually involve the senior hens who have produced chicks. Once again blood gets spilt and I patch them up.

The other points require a lot of explanation, almost a books worth, but I'll try to explain why I believe this over the life of this thread.

Time to count the chickens, get Dink out of the magnolia tree and her daughter Donk off the bank behind the donkey stable where she's building a nest.








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[Birdsong 82]

Just trying to understand but what do you mean by the picture shown in this forum are not necessarily backyards?

There are plenty of predators here, humans are the most common (a point often overlooked on this forum and others. Really unpleasant the human, pretends to be the chickens friend and steals its eggs. Forces the chicken to live in coops so it can sneak in at night and catch one because it couldn’t catch one out in the open). The next most dangerous is a large hawk (Goss Hawk) that comes down from the Pyrenees late autumn and returns in the spring. I’ve only had one hen that has survived a Goss Hawk attack. Weasels, dangerous for pullets and cockerels but because of the way the weasel hunts (tries to get behind the prey and grab a mouthful to avoid the beak and claws) if the grown hens and cocks make a run for it with the weasel hanging on they usually shake the weasel off. I’ve got three hens here at the moment with sore arses and no tail feathers. There are buzzards but generally the are carrion eaters; they’ll have a go if they think a chicken is injured. Feral mink, rare but deadly. Fagina, think large mink with a flat face. Foxes, but they mostly hunt at night and despite some silly stories aren’t very good at climbing trees. Feral cats, wild boar which don’t eat chickens but have destroyed coops and exposed the chickens to predation. Falcons, super fast but there are easier things to take on than a chicken for their size….


When I moved here to manage the land and animals the people who own the property had no idea how many chickens they lost. They just grabbed some eggs put them in an incubator and made some more…..they’re city people who inherited money and came here to live the rural life. Unfortunately there are more and more people like this buying up old farm properties and then carrying on their city style lives but want to keep animals because that’s the life style. There was no one here most days and of course the animals and land got neglected and an awful lot of creatures died or got kept in disgusting conditions.

When these old farm house were still working farms, while the animal care may need meet the standards most on this forum try to reach, the animals were much better protected because there were always people around outside and the animals had real value. Here for example the chickens used to live in a brick built shed right next to the house. There are still a few old school farm houses in the local village with chickens wandering around the yard, mingling with goats, sheep, dogs etc and while they lose the occasional chicken the loss rate is minimal compared to what was going on here and in many other old farm houses bought by city people.


Ask older Catalan farming people here if they build coops, feed their chickens special diets, or take their chicken to the vet when one falls ill, they’ll look at you as if they’re talking to a mad man. But they do value their animals, they make their living from them, or at least used to.

Many of the chickens kept by these indigenous smallholders are free range; it’s cheap.

and and this particular post maybe I’m just not reading it correctly but I feel like you’re saying that people who keep their chickens in coops are as bad as predetors. I don’t know that that’s really a fair judgment to make. I feel everybody who owns chickens Can keep them in anyway that works for them ang their flock. If you keep your chickens free range 24 seven and that works for you and your chickens that’s great. Maybe I’m just not reading the post correctly. Different situations work for different people. There are laws in some places where you have to have a coop In certain places have so many predators they wouldn’t last for 20 minutes after dark. And in some areas and situations free range 24 seven can work

 

[Shadrach]

Rachel Taylor.
"Just trying to understand but what do you mean by the picture shown in this forum are not necessarily backyards?"

There are pictures and descriptions on this forum of peoples chicken keeping set up that
"would be stretching the point beyond credulity if you called the areas shown back yards."

Rachel Taylor
'people who keep their chickens in coops are as bad as predetors."
Humans are the chickens greatest predator. There is no arguing this this statement, it's a fact.

Humans domesticated the chicken so they could collect their eggs, catch and kill them so they could eat them more easily. There is no arguing with this statement either, it's a fact.
There are some people who keep chickens because they just like chickens and don't kill them and don't eat their eggs, but they are a very small minority.

Rachel Taylor
'I feel everybody who owns chickens Can keep them in anyway that works for them ang their flock.'

I do understand that for a variety of reasons people are unable to keep chickens free range. I prefer to not keep them at all if I'm honest, but if I'm responsible for keeping any then I want them free range if possible.
Perhaps as I once mentioned here given the high predation rate and the general lack of interest in the chickens welfare it might be better all round if they didn't keep chickens at all.