Chicken Pecking Order that has gotten out of hand...

[Egghead_Jr]

Pecking order is natural, going out of way to dray blood from brood mates is not. The bird is not over pecking due to new flock additions, these are the birds she grew up with. It's not natural and as I like the taste of chicken would not hesitate to end the drama.

 

[Chris09]

Pecking order is natural, going out of way to dray blood from brood mates is not. The bird is not over pecking due to new flock additions, these are the birds she grew up with. It's not natural and as I like the taste of chicken would not hesitate to end the drama.

Growing up together has nothing to do with anything..
I have seen first hand on more than one accession how pecking order can work.
Look at a brooder of chicks, when you see that little bit of pushing, spurring, pecking going on,,, there not playing,,, there showing dominance and choosing pecking order.
In more "primitive" breeds this can be seen as soon as day 2 after hatch and yes even at that young of age they will draw blood and kill a hatch mate.

In some breeds if you pull out the dominating hen from a pen you can have a war in that pen for the next dominating hen, through that dominating hen back in the pen after being separated for 24 hours and you asking for trouble again because that hen is going fight with every hen in that pen that will fight back just to regain her position again.

 

[TalkALittle]

I'm all for acknowledging the instinctive nature of chickens, but the fact is that for an animal (be it domestic, wild, or tamed wild) that is kept in confinement, one of the biggest effects on behavior is the environment that they are being kept in. This includes housing, ranging areas, diet, and husbandry practices. Therefore, it is logical that the OP would come searching for a reason for her bird's behavior that is other than "the underlying nature of chickens". Because there are so many factors that effect behavior, it isn't unreasonable for others to suggest that changes to housing set ups, space, diet, etc. are logical first steps to attempt to solve the issue.

I am a dog trainer. I work with dogs that are fearful and fear aggressive and in some cases have bitten other dogs and people. Yes, sometimes the best and safest answer is euthanasia, but sometimes a change in how the dog lives and is cared for can be the difference between an owner having to put their dog to sleep or that dog getting to live out its days as a cherished pet. It would be unethical of me to recommend that every dog that shows aggressive tendencies be euthanized without exploring other possibilities as the cause of the behavior. I had a client come to me for help with aggression. I recommended a full health check with bloodwork for their dog. Turns out he was suffering from hypothyroidism. Medication and some management changes mediated the problem. Another client's dog uncharacteristically bit a visitor. Circumstances pointed to a pain response. A health check indicated hip dysplasia, arthritis, and inflammation. Since being treated, the dog hasn't exhibited any more aggressive behavior. Should I have recommended they be euthanized? Most people would say not. Should I have chalked it up to "the underlying nature" of those dogs. No, the problem wasn't the dogs' temperment, breeding, or instinctive drive and to accept that as the only cause without exhausting other options would have been wrong.

Edited by staff

 

[TalkALittle]

In more "primitive" breeds this can be seen as soon as day 2 after hatch and yes even at that young of age they will draw blood and kill a hatch mate.

In some breeds if you pull out the dominating hen from a pen you can have a war in that pen for the next dominating hen, through that dominating hen back in the pen after being separated for 24 hours and you asking for trouble again because that hen is going fight with every hen in that pen that will fight back just to regain her position again.

But the OP has EEs, a Plymouth Rock and a RIR. Not primitive breeds. So what would you say the likelihood of this being a case with the potential for war? Would it be worth it for the OP to take some relatively minor measures to try and establish peace within the flock? In my (limited) experience with those breeds, if she did remove the RIR, I think it is probably unlikely that she would have any issues among the remaining birds.

As a side, it seems I've encountered many posts that talk of "mean" RIRs. Is there a hatchery that is putting out mean-tempered birds? Is this a breed trend? I've seen the same happen with dog breeds over the years. It's called the "popular sire" syndrome. Where a certain popular dog (or line) is bred from prolifically. In addition to the desirable traits, sometimes some not-so-desirable stuff comes along for the ride. What you end up with is a large proportion of that particular breed exhibiting that undesirable and uncharacteristic trait. I remember the RIRs I encountered as a youth being very "pecky"--more so than my grandmother's BOs and BRs.

 

[Nupe]

I think the question that needs to be asked is, how do the other chickens behave when Bossy is out of the picture? If they seem happier and less stressed, I would say that's reason enough to get rid of Bossy. She's still young enough that if integrated into someone else's mature flock, she would be put in her place.

To add my 2 cents to previous discussions: In nature, mature birds would dominate and teach the young ones as they grow up and there would be no confinement. There is nothing natural about a small flock of birds all the same age in a cage. We humans made that happen which makes us fully responsible for dealing with the problems this can cause. We can chuck it up to nature when we get an overly aggressive flock mate, but we still have to fix it. I think it is far more cruel to allow a bully in the flock then to make a pot of soup.

 

[chickengeorgeto]

I also train or trained dogs but I have never tried to make a rabbet dog out of a Chihuahua or for that matter any dog lacking the inbred instinct and ability to follow a sent trail in order to trail a rabbet long enough to bring it back around to the gunner. I also don't think that my time would be well spent by attempting to train a Yorkshire Terrier to point quail or else teach a Pit Bull dog to mark down, then realign on the hunter's whistle or hand signals so that the pooch can first locate and then swim through 400 yards of freezing water to retrieve downed water fowl in its mouth. I also don't think that even Caesar Chavez would have much luck cross training dogs to perform tasks that are not bred into them. In that case how are we supposed to de-train or re-train an almost totally untrainable animal like a chicken to cause it to act in a fashion contrary to its nature? When we mix robust breeds of chickens (like RIRs) with chicken breeds that make good targets, don't punish the RIR for something that the chicken keeper helped start.

A chicken is a bird that for better or worse has evolved to live in flocks. There are many bird species that live in flocks, at least for part of the year. So how is using isolation on a hen chicken to suppress its inbred instinctive behavior not counter productive, useless, or even cruel? Are we confusing behavior modification with something like isolation that only forces the supposed offender into a lower status within its own flock. Then many of us condemn commercial chicken farmers for their supposed cruel treatment of chickens?

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[CrazyTalk]

My suggestion is to find a balanced feed containing no GMOs. In some parts of the country it's hard to find, which is a bummer. It has been said, on several threads, that it is a strong possibility that GMOs can cause aggressive behavior. OK, I admit that my belief is strong about GMOs, however I'm willing to spend a few extra $$ to not find out if I'm wrong. A lot of us treat our pets as family & want the absolute best we can do for them.

The absolute best foods all contain GMO, as they contain soy and corn. They also contain animal proteins.

I want the best for my birds - and that means soy and corn and animal meat. I'm not willing to spend more money to get poor food.

 

[TalkALittle]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TalkALittle

In that case how are we supposed to de-train an almost totally untrainable animal like a chicken to cause it to act in a fashion contrary to its nature? When we mix robust breeds of chickens (like RIRs) with chicken breeds that make good targets, don't punish the RIR for something that the chicken keeper helped start.

A chicken is a bird that for better or worse has evolved to live in flocks. There are many bird species that live in flocks, at least for part of the year. So how is using isolation on a hen chicken to suppress its inbred instinctive behavior not counter productive?

I don't think anyone suggested that isolation would suppress a chicken's instinctive behavior. However, a period of isolation might allow for the flock dynamics to change sufficiently such that, once the hen is reintroduced, that behavior is no longer triggered. There's a big difference. Additionally, the imposed isolation may be less about changing the "bossy" hens behavior than allowing the other hen the opportunity to heal and repair its health.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I was not suggesting that we attempt to "de-train" a chicken. Rather I was pointing out that I thought you were ignoring other possible causes and jumping too quickly to the conclusion that this must be an issue solely related to the inherent dominant nature of a particular chicken or breed. Your original post, in what seemed to be response to others' suggestions, dismissed other reasonable factors like housing or health as a possible cause and gave the impression that nothing short of removing this bird from the flock would eliminate the bullying. That may in fact be the case, but to go there first and ignore other possibilities is, in my opinion, irresponsible. My issue was with your apparent disregard of the possibility that this could be anything other than a flock dynamic issue.

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[Tutu of 5]

I have 2, not 1 RIR hens, of which only one is picking on, to the point of harm and bloodshed my EE's and my PRs. My other RIR is assertive, not aggressive, and is very sweet to boot.

Following chickengeorgeto's way of thinking...."When we mix robust breeds of chickens (like RIRs) with chicken breeds that make good targets, don't punish the RIR for something that the chicken keeper helped start." I should be able to assume that ALL RIR's will torment every other bird in the flock, to the point of bloodshed. This is not the case.

This is a single bird with, what appears to be, a mean streak. If, by isolating her for a while, we are able to change her behavior so she (and all of the rest of the flock) can live harmoniously, I see nothing wrong with that.

 

[CrazyTalk]

Following chickengeorgeto's way of thinking...."When we mix robust breeds of chickens (like RIRs) with chicken breeds that make good targets, don't punish the RIR for something that the chicken keeper helped start." I should be able to assume that ALL RIR's will torment every other bird in the flock, to the point of bloodshed. This is not the case.

There are breeds that are more aggressive, and more competitive than others. Not all RIR are problems, but many are when mixed with docile breeds. It's as simple as that - you're more likely to have problems mixing RIR with Silkies than you are just keeping Silkies (or RIR). "More likely" does not mean "in every case".

Edited by staff