Chickens for 10-20 years or more? Pull up a rockin' chair and lay some wisdom on us!

[NikkiMiChickie]

Unfortunately, this rarely happens that way.  Production breeds rarely just stop laying and then potter off into senility.  Due to their high reproduction, they often develop reproductive issues as they go out of lay, sometimes reproductive cancers(especially the ones who have had a light shoved up their butts all winter to encourage laying), etc.  This is why they are usually culled at the 2 yr mark and replaced. 

Not to say they can't last longer...I've had some still laying pretty well at 3 yrs but it's only a matter of time.  Who wants to wait and see how they do and if they possibly suffer from laying issues and have to be given a mercy killing? 

If you want breeds that lay great but are still standing in your yard past 2 years you will need a good DP breed known for exceptional lay.  Here's an example of what I mean and YMMV according to your husbandry methods, so don't expect the same, but I can tell you about my experiences with the difference in production breeds vs. DP breeds. 

Say a production breed lays 360 days out of the year(and that is about as high as it goes for any bird) but burns out in 2 years time.  This equals 720 eggs if you bought them at POL.  If you raised them from chicks, this number will be around but not exactly, at 570 eggs for their life. 

If you get a good DP breed who will take a break during the winter months of maybe 2 1/2 -3 mo.(let's make it 3 to be safe) and it has to first be raised to maturity(usually a month or more past the age of the production hen to get there), her first year she will lay approx.  180 eggs but her second year you will start getting 210 eggs for a total of 390 by her second year. 

Doesn't look like much compared to the PH who will lay 570 in her 2 years compared to that measly 390, does it?

But say your DP is still producing at 4 years?  She will have laid 1020 eggs. 

At 5 years?  1230

At 6?  1440 

Of course, her egg production would not be 210 by the time she reaches 6 and could only be 170 per year or even less.  And getting to 6 years of age and still be laying?  Has to be an exceptional breed.

I've had BAs at the age of 7 and still going strong and I never got to see how long they could have continued because a couple of young pups I had got a hold of them.  Who knows what could have happened? 

Do I think my results are typical?  Probably not.  Possible?  Yes.  Depends on the breed and how hard you try. 

Even if she lays to 4 yrs she has outdone the production hen and you will still have a meal when you cull her.  She just might have gone broody each year as well and turned out some more of her genes, which you will not get from the PH. 

A good DP breed saves you time and money way past what a production breed can do and I found that out years ago and have been acting upon it ever since. 

The added benefit that has nothing to do with money?  You get to have a pet that is also food and one that you will know like the back of your hand.  You will be glad to give her the best gift you can at the end of her life.  You can give her a clean death instead of one that involves declining into illness, pain and debility.  In other words, you can eat her when she stops laying and feel good about giving her a long and happy life.  You'll be able to point at the flock and say "There's Bertha's first girls and her grandbabies and her grandbaby's babies".    She'll live on.

Of course, by the 4th year with a DP, you could have another 570 from another PH to total 1140 eggs in 4 years compared to the 1020 of the DP.  

The replacement of production hens each 2 years is still going to yield more eggs but there is the chick purchase to consider as extra cost for replacement of that hen. 

In 2 yrs. the DPH could have made up to 4 replicas of herself , so she has paid for herself not only in eggs but in 4 extra roosters for meat and 4 replacement hens. 

Of course those are all theoretical numbers and a lot of supposed's but you get the general drift of where my mind has taken me over the years. If I were selling eggs for income, it would be wise to choose the PH over the DPH~ but most of us backyarders are only selling eggs to defray feed and management costs, while feasting on eggs and meat as another form of savings in the pocket. 

What do you think about feed cost comparisons? My PH seem to be more feed thrifty and far better foragers than some of my larger DP birds. I know that following your culling calendar & requirements, I would be eating the less thrifty birds come March, and I may well be. I'm just wondering if there is enough of a difference to consider the cost of feed as well in this equation? Even with the cost of buying new chicks every two years, I wonder if the cost to feed PH is lower? Possibly Fred would have been able to chime n on this since he keeps his flocks of ISAs, utility, and heritage birds separate. Assuming they are fed the same feed, is there a significant difference in consumption among the three flocks?

I'm really just playing a bit of devils advocate with that question. I'm leaning towards a project of creating my own utility flock, using your culling schedule & requirements, Bee. I still don't fully understand chicken body shapes, lol, but I'm really looking forward to learning more about that in the upcoming Chicken U hosted by the OT profs . I, too am ok with the decision to wait until January, btw.

Finally, I bolted something you said about giving your girls a good death. A friend is going through the internal battle if deciding when/if to put down her 12y/o beagle. People and their dogs make me sad. I feel it is our duty and our privilege as dog owners to give them a peaceful, painless death. I get upset at the selfishness of some of these "animal lovers" who feed their pets pain killers and liver/kidney-killing meds for the last months (to years!) of their miserable lives. They cannot put the dog down bc "I don't know what I'll do without him/her." Boo hoo. It's your JOB to ease his suffering. He's been a faithful, loyal companion for over a decade. He's brought you many a smile. He does not deserve to be in pain. Quality of life.....

Anyways, I can relate to giving the chicken a long happy life and then ending it swiftly and calmly. No painful reproductive diseases. No egg bound hens. No heart attacks on the roost, although I suppose that is the more peaceful of these ways to go, the meat wouldn't be useful.

Thank you, Bee, for always striking a chord and putting chickens into a perspective that I can relate to.

 

[Beekissed]

The thing I found out with the sex links I had is this...some won't lay for 2 year and some do, some will lay past that but they are too few. I grew up on production leghorns and RIRs and I found it to be too short sighted for a family's needs. We used to do POL to the 2 years and then eat them, start all over again. It got old and I never felt like I could learn anything about the life of chickens that way. When I grew up and out on my own I did the mixed flocks of DP and layers.

Sure, folks selling eggs for a profit are going to probably want production but, let's face it, most of the folks on here panic when they get too many eggs and start cooking them to feed back to chickens.

I started looking for the ultimate chicken...the one that you can free range for the bulk of her nutrition, supplement when you have to with layer ration, get plenty of eggs for eating and for selling to defray feed costs with just a bit left over for operating costs, reproduce her own kind, meaty, hardy to the max, gentle but wary on free range conditions, and last, but not least, beautiful enough that I'm not ashamed to have her in my flock.

Yes, that's a lot to expect out of hatchery stock but I set out to find it anyway.

A PH is not thrifty on feed like you imagine...if you don't feed them good, they will literally lay themselves to death. They will forage but, IME, they will not do nearly as well on that level of nutrition as the DP. The DP just works at a slower pace and on a slower metabolism...which means they stay conditioned on the same amount of feed that the PH would look horrible on. Ask me about slow metabolism...I ARE one.

Just because the DP is bigger doesn't mean she consumes more, just puts out a little less. Her body burns fuel at a different rate and slow and steady wins the race. Sort of like a draft horse compared to a race horse...whose going to eat the most? About the same, but for highly different levels of activity.

 

[ChickChickChicky]

Well, think I did at least ok and maybe even well on my Human Anatomy exam tonight, now if I can just make it thru the big final on Wednesday my little pea brain can rest awhile.

Now that I'm relaxing for a minute, thought I'd add a couple of photos....



Boneless, skinless, pre-packaged chicken...




and this next one is a little risque'.... sorry

 

[Beekissed]

 

[maryhysong]

Link, please...

A discussion of how to toe punch would be helpful too. I'm gonna need to do that in a couple of months.

Sarah

sexing chicks, toe punching and leg banding. I've looked at a couple online catalogs for leg bands but I can't figure out what sizes or kinds to buy. I need some kind of step by step here or at least enough info to determine what I need for the birds I want to band. The catalogs really didn't seem to have any of this info; just gave the info on the bands themselves. I am thinking of getting a toe puncher, that doesn't look too difficult (and I"ve tatooed rabbits & goats ears and it doesn't look any more difficult than that) But I have some questions; what's the best age to toe punch; what's the oldest you should punch chicks and still have it be a relatively bloodless and painless procedure?

Gosh Fred if I lived close to you I'd be there in a heartbeat with my good DSLR camera to take crisp clear pics for you! (and of course pick your brain while I was at it)

 

[maryhysong]

Life Lessons, Changing Times, and The Future

I'll be off line for a couple days as we have a few family things to deal with downstate. Thought I'd sort of post a personal "testimony" type article to bridge the past weekend to the future. Some of you know that I've been breeding our own utility lines for now 4 years. We're happy enough with the progress that I will now say, I will never again order a box of chicks from a hatchery nor box up any chicks at a feed store. That day has passed. At this point in my life, I can choose to care much more about quality.

I've spent the last two years reading and re-reading and re-reading again two very lengthy threads here. The Heritage Large Fowl thread and the Heritage Rhode Island Red thread. I've read them through, again and again. I've posted less than three or four times on them. It hasn't been about posting, it's been about learning. Learning? Oh yes. So very, very much to learn. One is never too old or too experienced to learn. The more I learn, the more I realize I've yet to learn. It's exciting!!!!

This week, I joined the APA. Paid my dues and everything. LOL

If I'm taking on a new adventure of breeding heritage fowl, then by golly, I put myself into college and I've been soaking it in. Every last bit of it. What the heck would a farmer, even be it a farmer who'd been responsible for chickens since the late 1950's have to learn about heritage fowl? Hah!!!! I'm a freshman all over again.

You can fear that sort of thing, be intimidated and not invest the time. Ok, but as my old friend used say, "Darlin', you be stuck"
Or, you can be lazy and just say you don't have time to invest in going to those looooooong heritage threads and read through them. Hah!!! Ok. Then that's the way it'll be.

This old farmer is entering a fresh aspect of chickens. In many ways? It actually is kinda going back to where it all began decades ago. I'm frankly pretty much done with the modern, mass produced chicken, as they are usually presented today.

We have the Frank Reese Good Shepherd Barred Rocks, I'm just beginning with the Reds and if I can complete the deal with some White Rocks? That's it. I'll be happy as a clam. Eggs? We'll get enough. If some of the egg business gets dialed back? So be it. If I'm going to continue doing this into my 70's and by God's grace, into my 80's? I'm gonna happy and challenged doing it.

Class dismissed.

Thanks for the lessons Fred (and the rest of you!) I certainly appreciate the modern wonders of technology to help me keep learning. Even if I ordered every book I could find at the library I couldn't get this much great info. I think the day you stop learning is the day you are truly dead. I'm working my way through this thread as best I can, a few pages here and there while trying to keep up with the current part. I've also read some over on the Heritage thread. Just sucking up chicken knowledge as fast as I can.

Safe journies and I hope everything is ok with your family.

 

[Eggcessive]

I got some numbered leg bands recently from Cutler Supply. They come in colors, numbered 1-25, 26-50. 51-75, etc. They are plastic and slip on easily. They have a chart for sizes ( 9 for banties, 11 for most hens and roos, etc.) I looked at a lot of websites, and those were better for separating your chickens than the colored legbands. And no toe punching or metal band tools.

 

[fowlman01]

This is the best way to keep track of your chicks. The punch itself is very small and if done at hatch, will not bleed. Legbands can fall off and have the potential of injuring a bird if they don't fit properly as the bird grows......it is just a matter of how important it is to keep track of the birds from day one.

Walt

 

[cubalaya]

i like the toe punch. it is permanent.

 

[Fred's Hens]

What do you think about feed cost comparisons? My PH seem to be more feed thrifty and far better foragers than some of my larger DP birds. I know that following your culling calendar & requirements, I would be eating the less thrifty birds come March, and I may well be. I'm just wondering if there is enough of a difference to consider the cost of feed as well in this equation? Even with the cost of buying new chicks every two years, I wonder if the cost to feed PH is lower? Possibly Fred would have been able to chime n on this since he keeps his flocks of ISAs, utility, and heritage birds separate. Assuming they are fed the same feed, is there a significant difference in consumption among the three flocks?
I'm really just playing a bit of devils advocate with that question. I'm leaning towards a project of creating my own utility flock, using your culling schedule & requirements,

There are feed intake differences between differently bred birds. The huge framed, Reese Barred Rocks, those dizzying birds everyone sighs over and which I also have, are incredible feed consumers. You've got to be able range these birds to cut down on the feed bill. They take forever to grow out and grow to the size of small turkeys. LOL
But what would one do in the winter, when the range is dead? Or, if someone has no meaningful range to run them on?

At the other end of the spectrum, the commercial layers have been bred for thin gut walls and fast and efficient feed uptake. Of course, you'll get more eggs per pound of feed out of these layers. If older type breeds and strains were better, even over the longer run, in a cost of feed per pound to eggs produced, the commercial folks would have them. They have these light weight hybrid layers instead. The commercial houses aren't stupid. They know their costs, efficiency and profitability studies and they've not voted for the standard SOP bred birds, nor the modern type DP birds.

Over time, I've actually come to perhaps like the modern DP bird, overall, the least. If I want a top layer and get the egg bound, ascites, ovarian issues attendant with such a bird? I'll buy a commercial layer strain and bury the bodies as they fall dead. Otherwise? I'm going to heritage fowl and am going back to great birds. The hatchery stock of DP birds tilt much, much closer to the commercial layers than they do to their heritage namesakes.

Bee called them "monopoly money" birds. Indeed. Harsh? Perhaps, but I've witness this slow erosion over the last 30 years and while a nubie may have no idea and cannot know what these birds used to be, back in the day, some of us do remember.