Chickens for 10-20 years or more? Pull up a rockin' chair and lay some wisdom on us!

[Fred's Hens]

I'm not the only one who has observed the erosion of the hatchery DP over the last 4 decades and consequences of pushing these birds to higher and higher lay rates and at what cost? SpeckledHen, long term backyarder, far longer than most, long time moderator here, (tough job) and one of the most common sense, wise folks I know recently posted the following in a reply. I've seen SpeckledHen (Cynthia) post this basic insight dozens of times over the past few years. I recognize experience when I see it.


Quote:
What you are seeing is not really egg binding. The age and the fact that you have hatchery stock from one of the big production hatcheries tells me that they are starting to die from what may start as salpingitis infections/egg yolk peritonitis and end up with internal laying. All of those are sort of interrelated. I lost almost every original hatchery hen I had (from another big hatchery) to internal laying/egg yolk peritonitis. It's very common in hatchery hens, especially the breeds that are the most popular with feed store shipments like the Rocks, Wyandottes, Orpingtons, Reds, etc., but can be seen in other breeds of low quality genetics.

We've necropsied many of them, seen the terrible cheesy gunk clogging the oviducts (like what your hen passed) and in the abdomen as well. That is solidified infection and egg material combined. It's genetic/hormone based-no prevention, no cure. You have to start with better quality stock. My hens who are not direct hatchery girls do much better-I have 6 year old hens out of hatchery parents who are still laying and seem well other than arthritis. The further from the hatchery generation you get, the less you'll see that stuff. Been battling this stuff for years and there is truly no way to beat it other than get birds made of better genetic stuff.

All the calcium in the world will not fix internal laying. That is not the cause. There was a study that seemed to say that flax seed given regularly might help offset some of this, but mine did have that occasionally and it didn't seem to have an effect. Could be it should be given from a very young age, very regularly, but this being genetic/hormonal, not sure how much good it would do.

 

[Miss Lydia]

And one for all my fellow chicken dudes out there. Walt, Fred, Bruce, RidgeRunner amd the rest.

I want one of those for my DH .

 

[Miss Lydia]

Well, think I did at least ok and maybe even well on my Human Anatomy exam tonight, now if I can just make it thru the big final on Wednesday my little pea brain can rest awhile.

Now that I'm relaxing for a minute, thought I'd add a couple of photos....



Boneless, skinless, pre-packaged chicken...




and this next one is a little risque'.... sorry

 

[IvyMaeWilliams]

One of my big questions now is: how do I find non-hatchery DP stock that doesn't cost $100 / chick? Or is that a going rate?
I've spent a lot of time over the last three days trying to find sources, but without very much luck at all.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

I don't believe that is the going rate, at least not in the breeds that interest me.

What breeds interest you?

 

[Fred's Hens]

One of my big questions now is: how do I find non-hatchery DP stock that doesn't cost $100 / chick? Or is that a going rate?
I've spent a lot of time over the last three days trying to find sources, but without very much luck at all.

This is a common, common question. How do I find breeder quality birds? There is no yellow pages, and many of the best breeders have no websites. Hatcheries do a bang up job of selling their products, complete with nice photos.

First, hang out in the heritage or breed thread of the breed you really want. Read a few hundred pages. You'll see names dropped right and left. You see these breeders often mentioned or they themselves will post. Or, you'll hear things like, "Bill Smith has great XXXX and ships eggs or will be selling birds". Stuff like that. Every breed has a club or national club. Top breeders are often listed on those clubs websites. It is a process, but many times, people will refer you to someone.

It's the dead of winter and stock is in moult this time of year!!! Keep that in mind.

Attend poultry shows. Breeders are there selling off excess stock, particularly in autumn. Finally, Duane Urch has a site and sells most breeds and has top stuff. What's the name of his website? Purebred Poultry or something like that.

The prices are NOT that high. $5 a chick is far more common. Shipping, however can be pricey because you're shipping live animals and they have to go priority. Finally, pm people you meet on the various breed threads here. You'll find many are super helpful and not stand offish at all.
Others? May never even reply. Take that as a no.

 

[Beekissed]

What you are seeing is not really egg binding. The age and the fact that you have hatchery stock from one of the big production hatcheries tells me that they are starting to die from what may start as salpingitis infections/egg yolk peritonitis and end up with internal laying. All of those are sort of interrelated. I lost almost every original hatchery hen I had (from another big hatchery) to internal laying/egg yolk peritonitis. It's very common in hatchery hens, especially the breeds that are the most popular with feed store shipments like the Rocks, Wyandottes, Orpingtons, Reds, etc., but can be seen in other breeds of low quality genetics.

We've necropsied many of them, seen the terrible cheesy gunk clogging the oviducts (like what your hen passed) and in the abdomen as well. That is solidified infection and egg material combined. It's genetic/hormone based-no prevention, no cure. You have to start with better quality stock. My hens who are not direct hatchery girls do much better-I have 6 year old hens out of hatchery parents who are still laying and seem well other than arthritis. The further from the hatchery generation you get, the less you'll see that stuff. Been battling this stuff for years and there is truly no way to beat it other than get birds made of better genetic stuff.

All the calcium in the world will not fix internal laying. That is not the cause. There was a study that seemed to say that flax seed given regularly might help offset some of this, but mine did have that occasionally and it didn't seem to have an effect. Could be it should be given from a very young age, very regularly, but this being genetic/hormonal, not sure how much good it would do.

I can't say how much I agree with all of this. What few of these people know to do, or will do, is to actually open those birds up, get familiar with what normal looks like inside and when you see abnormal it will be quite obvious what is wrong with an abnormal bird's reproductive tract. I respect Speckledhen's words as well, I've always found her experience to be spot on and you can take it to the bank when she teaches what she knows.

Part of knowing and confirming a good cull is to examine the insides of these birds to see what could be relative to why you picked her as a cull. It's like a study course and you will recognize that same symptom or body style problem in a bird, later on the down the road, and it shouldn't surprise you to open it up and find similar body/organ failures and structures. Know them from the inside out so you can imagine what is inside this body style or that body style, this physical feature or trait, this level of health or conditioning. A diagram is standard and will, by necessity, show all organs fitting neatly into the diagram silhouette. Not reality.

 

[Fred's Hens]

Pull up a rockin' chair and lay some wisdom on us!​

The title of this thread, in the beginning, was Old Timers.....Pull up a rockin' chair or similar. Thus this thread being referred to as the OT thread.

Lately, we been discussing the absolute need to get, or breed your own, better birds. The reason is that 75% of the problems the modern small holder of birds has is related to the reality of having poor quality birds. Only the genuine Old Timer, those 50 years old, let's say, or older can recognize the fact that the modern bird simply isn't the bird that Great-Grandma kept. Simply isn't. If you're an interested teen or young person, how would know that? You wouldn't. Don't hold that against you.

Nobody is picking on the young chicken keeper here. They cannot know what birds were like in the pre-historic days of the mid 1900's.

So, we're here to tell them. "to lay some wisdom on" as this threads title says. We can rehearse flock care until the cows come home, and maybe we have over the last year and 10,000 posts. There is a reason. That reason starts with the fact that the modern bird have evolved HUGELY over the past half decade. These are NOT your great grandma's birds. To get those? To get those genetics? You've got to look elsewhere than your typical hatchery or feedstore. Sorry folks, but that's the way it is. Can you order a box of 50 chicks from the retail hatcheries and still get 3 or 4 decent birds and go from there? Sure. It is possible, but that'd still leave you work on breeding them, if you even can.

Now, how expensive is that? Wouldn't be far, far cheaper to just get 5 or 6 GREAT birds from the get go? Just trying to do some consumer education here.

 

[NickyPick]

Case in point, you see this raggedy little hatchery stock New Hamp? She is over 6 yrs old and when these pics were taken she had just arrived back to my place after a year and a half at Hell Farm, a place at which all the others of her breed had died. I had her for 5 years and she made the cull list every year, along with all her other New Hamp sisters from the same bunch. She was rehomed to a bad place for awhile and when she came back she had lice and mites. She was still laying when she arrived at the end of Sept. and kept laying 5 days out of 7 right up until about 3 wks ago when she went into full molt.

She was the rooster's favorite until she molted and they were inseparable up until then. No more laying, no more sex, no more roo...for awhile. She'll be back.

Ah HA! That is a New Hampshire Red. By the time I get home where I can post a picture of the two pullets I picked up this summer that were sold as NHRs, I know this thread will be about 20+ pages away, but what I got is obviously NOT NHRs - they have white interspersed with their red feathers, not black. They're still my best layers & foragers. I'd like to know what they are at some point. I got two other pullets from this place that are supposedly a cross between the black Australorp and the NHR, pretty, nice fluffy butt and so far, good layers, just smaller eggs. My EE's & Wyandottes have quit laying completely this winter and are hard molting, so these new pullets are a nice addition.

 

[Fred's Hens]

I can't say how much I agree with all of this. What few of these people know to do, or will do, is to actually open those birds up, get familiar with what normal looks like inside and when you see abnormal it will be quite obvious what is wrong with an abnormal bird's reproductive tract. I respect Speckledhen's words as well, I've always found her experience to be spot on and you can take it to the bank when she teaches what she knows.

Part of knowing and confirming a good cull is to examine the insides of these birds to see what could be relative to why you picked her as a cull. It's like a study course and you will recognize that same symptom or body style problem in a bird, later on the down the road, and it shouldn't surprise you to open it up and find similar body/organ failures and structures. Know them from the inside out so you can imagine what is inside this body style or that body style, this physical feature or trait, this level of health or conditioning. A diagram is standard and will, by necessity, show all organs fitting neatly into the diagram silhouette. Not reality.

Great post.