Chickens for 10-20 years or more? Pull up a rockin' chair and lay some wisdom on us!

[scottcaddy]

Uh...Scott....that was me. Lol.

Quote:

 

[bestpractice]

The post below may have been the way *some* families raised chickens, but I have to say that isn't and wasn't the reality on a profit making farm. The USDuh, college of agriculture and education played a predominate role in farm management on our historic farm. I admit I'm in the beginning pages of this thread, but there are several things that the "old timers" on my farm did. They had a thriving chicken business that turned a tidy profit until mechanization and specialization took agriculture by storm in the late '50's so I'm inclined to look at profit making strategies.

1) Animals (birds/chickens/cows/pigs) can and do freeze to death during hard winters -- even cold hardy breeds will need protection/heat/warmth. If you are building a chicken house use common sense -- utilize the sun to heat the chicken house -- it's free -- using solar for a chicken house is a very smart thing to do. "Old timers" who make/made a profit raising chickens built accordingly and by doing so increased their profit by not losing their flock to freezing temperatures and they increased egg production. 2) Chicken feed will make or break you. If you don't feed enough of the right feed your hens won't lay enough eggs to make a profit; and/or poor health, and/or your broilers won't grow. So this willy-nilly approach to feed will keep a flock manager (old timer) from realizing a good profit in any century. 3) Fresh running water, pumped by the windmill, was readily available in the chicken house! Do I really need to expound upon the benefits of clean water and "reasonable" hygiene in making a profit? It's common sense, sort of like washing your hands, isn't it? 4) We currently have antibiotic resistant bacteria because antibiotics were used extensively beginning in the mid century. Even if you are 80+ years old, antibiotics were common place to "old timers" who are still alive today -- for grandpa, who is dead, not so much so. It wasn't uncommon to lose your entire flock to disease, and that devastated your chicken business, which in some cases could = starvation. Responsible flock managers medicated their chickens! I'm thinking, from what I've read thus far, the old timers sound a little more like backyard "hobbyist" than some of the backyard "hobbyist" they are ridiculing -- at least in *some* cases it sounds that way. I'm straight out with it, and a little gruff. According to the opening statements in this thread that is to be expected here and I should fit right in... BTW, Hi! I've pulled up my rocking chair and I'm enjoying the thread. I'm re-opening our historic solar heated chicken house that was built in the early part of the 1900's by grandpa, who was ahead of his time with concrete and solar. I love information about "best practices" and "common sense" approaches. I fully expect to get a good education about chicken farming It may take awhile to get through the hundreds of pages, but my rocking chair is comfortable

Originally Posted by mississippifarmboy


Just catching up and reading all the responses and thought of something else about how very delicate and fragile chickens are.

When I was a kid "chick starter" was also called "corn meal"

I use store bought starter now just because it's quick and easy to buy, but for generations, the starter was plain old corn meal, usually home ground too. Ma had an open bottomed "cage" sorta thing with 2" X 4" wire inside one corner of the chicken house. She would put an old flat pan inside full of corn meal inside it and the chicks could get to it but the larger chickens couldn't. Our chicken house was just old barn lumber with a tin roof and dirt floor, not much different from my current one. There was a small run on one end that was only used when we wanted to breed a certain breed, we would put the rooster and the hens we wanted in there, after a few weeks would stop gathering the eggs and let a few broody hens sit the eggs, then open the door when they hatched and turn them loose. Other than breeding season, they all free ranged over the yard, patures, fields and woods. We did shut the coop door every night and open it again about daylight every morning. Feeders were galvanized store bought ones, home made wooden V type troughs with 2" X 4" wire over the top sitting on old bricks, old hubcaps and just thrown on the ground sometimes with grains. Waterers were cut down buckets, hot water heater tanks cut in half long ways, old bent up washpans and the ponds and creek.

Like most of the other OTs that have posted here, in our family it was the women who managed the flocks, feed, watered, done the breeding and such. Us boy kids done the butchering and cleaning and Pa took all the credit.

We fed a mix of cheap layer pellets, whole and cracked corn, whatever scraps and such the dogs and pigs didn't eat and they spent a lot of time digging through the "droppings" of the horses, pigs, cows and other animals. They also had run of the fields and gardens after we finished with them for the season.

I do not have, and no one I was ever around ever had electricity and running water in the coops or runs. I've never had a chicken freeze to death either, although I have had a few large combed roosters loose the points on their combs during a hard winter. The way I dealt with that was.... to ignore it. By spring they looked fine, the tips would turn black, eventually shed off and no harm done. And even this happend only a very few times during very severe weather.

We had a few that had names like "that red rooster" or "spotted hen", but nothing more personal. They were chickens, not pets. All were going to wind up in the cook pot at some point, when depended on when they quit being productive. Some never made it to a year, several would be 5 or 6 years old when dumpling day came. A rooster flogged us, he was dinner come Sunday. No exceptions.

I do worm if I see any sign that they have worms, but it is very rare. Growing up I didn't even know you COULD worm a chicken.

I remember just a few times that a chicken would have leg mites. Pa would catch it, dip a small rag in coal oil and tie around it's legs. After about a week or less they would pick it loose and the legs would be clean and clear of mites. He always coated the roost poles with burnt motor oil a couple of times a year too to keep mites away.

Culling was done anytime a chicken was hurt or wasn't growing right, and the culls we ate. We never even tried to "fix" a limping chicken, one that was a runt or such. Killing was quick and as humane as possible with any animal on the farm. It's not something you enjoy, but in my opinion, if you are going to raise chickens, you better be able to do it and do it right. Period.

Since I started trying to work with rare and heritage breeds, I admit I cull harder than ever. But on a working farm like ours, there is no waste, we just eat a lot of chickens.

I've always loved chickens. I love sitting out in the yard watching them, it relaxes me. I love the variety, the colors and just the individual personalities of them. I enjoy feeding, watering and taking care of them. I've got just a few I paid insane amounts of money for, just because I wanted them. But at the end of the day.....

They are still chickens.

 

[cubalaya]

^ great post

 

[kuntrygirl]

Now this is first class! Can't imagine anything better.

 

I agree!

 

[Beekissed]

Quote: Responsible flock managers medicated their chickens! I'm thinking, from what I've read thus far, the old timers sound a little more like backyard "hobbyist" than some of the backyard "hobbyist" they are ridiculing -- at least in *some* cases it sounds that way...

"Old timers" who make/made a profit raising chickens built accordingly and by doing so increased their profit by not losing their flock to freezing temperatures and they increased egg production.

I love information about "best practices" and "common sense" approaches. I fully expect to get a good education about chicken farming It may take awhile to get through the hundreds of pages, but my rocking chair is comfortable



Glad you could pull up a chair...and learn something. It sounds as if you have some dissatisfaction about this thread and the contents in it because it offends your sensibilities about how your Grandad raised chickens. That's okay to disagree and I have no problem with telling it like it is as you see it.

You might have missed the fact that, yes, we are pretty much all small-time flock raisers when you compare it to the commercial husbandry you have described~hence the reason to be posting on a Backyard Chicken forum. Now then, if we were posting on a Commercial Poultry Forum, I expect our views and practices might more closely detail chicken husbandry as it applies to raising a thousand birds at a time. But we aren't and they don't, because it simply doesn't apply to small flock practices.

The problem you seem to be having~along with many backyard enthusiast~is in understanding the difference in the two different types of poultry husbandry. In commercial poultry on a large scale, as most commercial operations are, it is difficult to control temps in the large buildings they use. It is also difficult to control disease transmission in the large flocks, as by the time you may notice illness, it may have spread too far. It is also difficult to control hygiene with such large numbers of livestock and increased fecal matter, increased chance for mold or bacteria in stored feeds, poor air quality, proximity to disease carrying rodents, etc. are much more a problem with these operations.

Of course, with these large operations it is the cheapest and most convenient solution to provide supplemental heat, medications, extreme hygiene practices if one wants to insure a profit. Because profit is the bottom line there and no doubt about it.

On the other hand, most of us here have smaller (under 200 and usually much smaller than that) flocks and can provide more...shall we say..personal husbandry. With smaller groups of animals the heat is well controlled by flocks that are appropriately numbered to the small buildings we use and they can, by their numbers, create adequate heat for sustaining life and health.

The hygiene is also easier as we aren't dealing with large floors, large feeders, large water reservoirs, large amounts of fecal matter, poor air quality and more potential for disease transmission. We don't have to apply harsh chemicals or solvents to all surfaces nor do we have to worry much about overgrowth of dangerous bacteria in coops that provide for fresh air, less crowding, etc.

We also don't have to medicate because we can afford to lose a whole flock and our livelihood is not dependent upon its survival. Sure, we like our birds to survive and they seem to do so quite well with our current husbandry practices~without depending upon medication to keep them alive. I doubt you will fine one OT on this thread that has "lost an entire flock to disease".

One type of poultry keeping is large scale and depends on the animal for money. One type of poultry keeping is smaller and depends on it for any number of reasons, but primarily for food and some for a light side profit from breeding stock, egg sales, meat sales. The two types of husbandry are vastly different, as you can see.

The real problem comes in when backyard "hobbyist" try to apply commercial practices to their tiny flocks. Sure it sounds lovely to bleach everything like the big boys because they do this for a profit, so they must have a handle on just how to keep a bird alive, don't they? If you live near a commercial operation you will soon find that they lose enormous amounts of their birds to death each and every day. Apply the same percentages to someone who has 5 hens and you soon have an empty chicken yard.

Commercial growers keep their flocks very briefly if they are broilers and 2 years max if they are layers, so their animal husbandry practices are decidedly designed for the short term~so relying heavily on medications and disinfecting all surfaces just insures their short term investment will have some level of survival rate until they can cash in. They buy their meds in bulk and deliver them the same way...indiscriminately. Their product is substandard but good enough for the USDA inspection and that is all that matters to turn a profit.

Small flocks that tend to stick around longer than 8 wks or even longer than 2 years, will need to have a slightly more developed immune system or you will be buying a lot of medicine. Seeing as you are clearly not raising this flock for a profit and medicine is costly, that puts you in the hole even deeper...so, you are actually raising chickens so you can lose money.

OTs with small flocks like to at least break even and maybe even make a little, so treating a $5 bird with $20 of medicine doesn't have a practical application. The cheapest, easiest and most effective defense against disease transmission is preventative. The development of strong immune systems, breeding for hardiness~ instead of maximum production levels that sacrifice much in the way of weak immune systems, compounded by immediate and continual meds to keep them alive, as in the commercial setup~and slow development of consistently healthy animal husbandry is much more practical(and cost effective) in a small setup.

Heating a building has the same effect...cost money and isn't necessary if you don't need to keep chickens laying/producing to make a living. Natch.

Feeding, same thing. High pro, commercially designed, medicated feeds for a backyard flock is like putting high octane gas in a Dodge Duster. Isn't necessary...sure it might make you feel good about what you are placing in the car, but it will cost you more and the car will still run great on unleaded. Backyard flocks aren't for profit and good production levels are all that is expected. They can maintain good health and good production because they are not dealing with the same problems as commercial flocks: crowding, fecal buildup, poor air quality, stored and stale feeds, increased rodent infestation, high disease transmission, high mortality rate.

This is not to say that backyard flocks can't have superior growth and performance on their husbandry practices, because it is done all the time. They can just manage to do it more cheaply and simply than the big boys because the two types of flocks only have one similarity~chickens.

Yes, you could say we too are backyard hobbyists and no one has denied that. The difference is that the OTs here know that and don't treat their flocks like commercial ag poultry flocks as recommended by the USDA. Do we really want to trust the health of our flocks to the advice of the USDA? Pick up any newspaper, read any online article, just about any magazine and you will find enough information about the problems with the drugs and medical practices as approved by the USDA.

You may not like what we have to say here and that is your prerogative, I certainly advocate free speech and opinion but you might want to preface further commentary about husbandry practices with IME(in my experience), meaning the experience you, yourself, have gained by applying your practices to chicken husbandry. That information was found on Pg. 2, post #15.

We also later asked that folks participating in this thread give us their years of chicken husbandry experience before offering advice and I might have missed that in your post, forgive me if I did, but please try to do this so that any newbies reading can see that you have actually applied these practices to your own flocks and found them satisfactory for your situation. It helps to separate the advice given as theory but has not stood the test of time, from the husbandry that has been applied, refined and utilized by the OTs participating on this thread.

Thanks!

 

[babymakes6]

 

[bestpractice]

Glad you could pull up a chair...and learn something. It sounds as if you have some dissatisfaction about this thread and the contents in it because it offends your sensibilities about how your Grandad raised chickens. That's okay to disagree and I have no problem with telling it like it is as you see it.

You might have missed the fact that, yes, we are pretty much all small-time flock raisers when you compare it to the commercial husbandry you have described~hence the reason to be posting on a Backyard Chicken forum. Now then, if we were posting on a Commercial Poultry Forum, I expect our views and practices might more closely detail chicken husbandry as it applies to raising a thousand birds at a time. But we aren't and they don't, because it simply doesn't apply to small flock practices.

The problem you seem to be having~along with many backyard enthusiast~is in understanding the difference in the two different types of poultry husbandry. In commercial poultry on a large scale, as most commercial operations are, it is difficult to control temps in the large buildings they use. It is also difficult to control disease transmission in the large flocks, as by the time you may notice illness, it may have spread too far. It is also difficult to control hygiene with such large numbers of livestock and increased fecal matter, increased chance for mold or bacteria in stored feeds, poor air quality, proximity to disease carrying rodents, etc. are much more a problem with these operations.

Of course, with these large operations it is the cheapest and most convenient solution to provide supplemental heat, medications, extreme hygiene practices if one wants to insure a profit. Because profit is the bottom line there and no doubt about it.

On the other hand, most of us here have smaller (under 200 and usually much smaller than that) flocks and can provide more...shall we say..personal husbandry. With smaller groups of animals the heat is well controlled by flocks that are appropriately numbered to the small buildings we use and they can, by their numbers, create adequate heat for sustaining life and health.

The hygiene is also easier as we aren't dealing with large floors, large feeders, large water reservoirs, large amounts of fecal matter, poor air quality and more potential for disease transmission. We don't have to apply harsh chemicals or solvents to all surfaces nor do we have to worry much about overgrowth of dangerous bacteria in coops that provide for fresh air, less crowding, etc.

We also don't have to medicate because we can afford to lose a whole flock and our livelihood is not dependent upon its survival. Sure, we like our birds to survive and they seem to do so quite well with our current husbandry practices~without depending upon medication to keep them alive. I doubt you will fine one OT on this thread that has "lost an entire flock to disease".

One type of poultry keeping is large scale and depends on the animal for money. One type of poultry keeping is smaller and depends on it for any number of reasons, but primarily for food and some for a light side profit from breeding stock, egg sales, meat sales. The two types of husbandry are vastly different, as you can see.

The real problem comes in when backyard "hobbyist" try to apply commercial practices to their tiny flocks. Sure it sounds lovely to bleach everything like the big boys because they do this for a profit, so they must have a handle on just how to keep a bird alive, don't they? If you live near a commercial operation you will soon find that they lose enormous amounts of their birds to death each and every day. Apply the same percentages to someone who has 5 hens and you soon have an empty chicken yard.

Commercial growers keep their flocks very briefly if they are broilers and 2 years max if they are layers, so their animal husbandry practices are decidedly designed for the short term~so relying heavily on medications and disinfecting all surfaces just insures their short term investment will have some level of survival rate until they can cash in. They buy their meds in bulk and deliver them the same way...indiscriminately. Their product is substandard but good enough for the USDA inspection and that is all that matters to turn a profit.

Small flocks that tend to stick around longer than 8 wks or even longer than 2 years, will need to have a slightly more developed immune system or you will be buying a lot of medicine. Seeing as you are clearly not raising this flock for a profit and medicine is costly, that puts you in the hole even deeper...so, you are actually raising chickens so you can lose money.

OTs with small flocks like to at least break even and maybe even make a little, so treating a $5 bird with $20 of medicine doesn't have a practical application. The cheapest, easiest and most effective defense against disease transmission is preventative. The development of strong immune systems, breeding for hardiness~ instead of maximum production levels that sacrifice much in the way of weak immune systems, compounded by immediate and continual meds to keep them alive, as in the commercial setup~and slow development of consistently healthy animal husbandry is much more practical(and cost effective) in a small setup.

Heating a building has the same effect...cost money and isn't necessary if you don't need to keep chickens laying/producing to make a living. Natch.

Feeding, same thing. High pro, commercially designed, medicated feeds for a backyard flock is like putting high octane gas in a Dodge Duster. Isn't necessary...sure it might make you feel good about what you are placing in the car, but it will cost you more and the car will still run great on unleaded. Backyard flocks aren't for profit and good production levels are all that is expected. They can maintain good health and good production because they are not dealing with the same problems as commercial flocks: crowding, fecal buildup, poor air quality, stored and stale feeds, increased rodent infestation, high disease transmission, high mortality rate.

This is not to say that backyard flocks can't have superior growth and performance on their husbandry practices, because it is done all the time. They can just manage to do it more cheaply and simply than the big boys because the two types of flocks only have one similarity~chickens.

Yes, you could say we too are backyard hobbyists and no one has denied that. The difference is that the OTs here know that and don't treat their flocks like commercial ag poultry flocks as recommended by the USDA. Do we really want to trust the health of our flocks to the advice of the USDA? Pick up any newspaper, read any online article, just about any magazine and you will find enough information about the problems with the drugs and medical practices as approved by the USDA.

You may not like what we have to say here and that is your prerogative, I certainly advocate free speech and opinion but you might want to preface further commentary about husbandry practices with IME(in my experience), meaning the experience you, yourself, have gained by applying your practices to chicken husbandry. That information was found on Pg. 2, post #15.

We also later asked that folks participating in this thread give us their years of chicken husbandry experience before offering advice and I might have missed that in your post, forgive me if I did, but please try to do this so that any newbies reading can see that you have actually applied these practices to your own flocks and found them satisfactory for your situation. It helps to separate the advice given as theory but has not stood the test of time, from the husbandry that has been applied, refined and utilized by the OTs participating on this thread.

Thanks!

I respectfully disagree. Where I think we are disagreeing is a matter simple math, that is economics. At the end of the day, with the same size flock - 200 or 2000 -- good farm management makes money and waste does not -- good management expands, waste barely gets by. If any business, small or large, is not properly managed you will not make money, and you will not make it worth your time to raise the chickens - defining it as a hobby. There are people who can manage their household, and people who can't, the same goes for chickens. For most people, buying organic would cost less than their chicken. So, I respectfully disagree on the basis of simple economics. As I was taught from a young age --- watch your pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves.

edited by staff

 

[runsw/scissors]

As far as brooding chicks goes I have used a wire dog crate (with a flat pan on the bottom) with fireplace pellets very satisfactorily (only two batches of chicks thus far). The pellets turn to saw dust when wet and are pretty easy to scoop out.

I use a heat lamp that hangs over the top of the crate, off to one side, and let the chicks decide where to be. Works great! I have lost a few chicks after they fell out, but after putting cardboard along the sides near the bottom I haven't lost a single one.

I only had pasty butt once or twice when the chicks were shipped in cold weather, once in the brooder the problem never reoccurred. Shipped chicks get electrolyte solution the day I receive them and then plain ole water after that, simple really does work best! I should add that the above is only for shipped chicks, as I have push button broodies that will normally raise incubated eggs for me.

 

[Beekissed]

The proof is in the puddin', or so they say. From what I can read about the OTs on this thread, their management practices~though they seem poor to you in your infinite experience(what exactly was that experience, BTW?)~ they do an admirable job managing their flocks.

Economics isn't the question, it seems, but management. You are defining "good management" from a commercial viewpoint and I've already described why the two are vastly different.

"Good management" from a backyard viewpoint can be done economically to scale in a backyard with backyard management practices. Conversely, if one were to apply backyard style management to a commercial operation, then one would see much more loss and cost differences. As already noted, applying commercial ag's idea of "good management" isn't necessary or even appropriate for a backyard flock no more than it is appropriate to apply our management practices to a commercial scale operation.

One could argue economics and management differences all day, but at the end of the day, the one who has actually lived it, done it, experienced it and found it successful~in their backyard flock~is the only one who can say if they have saved money or lost it in their endeavors.

I, for one, have not lost any money on my husbandry practices or I would not bother to raise the chickens...as you say, you could buy them cheaper. But..can you really? Can you really buy free ranged, all naturally raised, humanely treated chicken for the same price that you can raise them at home? Have you priced that meat in the store? Do you trust their claims of how they were raised? I have~ and I don't.

If I wanted commercially fed, housed and medicated chicken that had been grown in disease infested, crowded commercial chicken houses, then the cost of buying vs. raising them would be no question~I'd just buy the substandard chicken from the store and roll on.

The big boys can produce that chicken cheaper, by all means, though you and I will always disagree on just what "good management" entails, I'm afraid.

 

[bestpractice]

The proof is in the puddin', or so they say. From what I can read about the OTs on this thread, their management practices~though they seem poor to you in your infinite experience(what exactly was that experience, BTW?)~ they do an admirable job managing their flocks.

Economics isn't the question, it seems, but management. You are defining "good management" from a commercial viewpoint and I've already described why the two are vastly different.

"Good management" from a backyard viewpoint can be done economically to scale in a backyard with backyard management practices. Conversely, if one were to apply backyard style management to a commercial operation, then one would see much more loss and cost differences. As already noted, applying commercial ag's idea of "good management" isn't necessary or even appropriate for a backyard flock no more than it is appropriate to apply our management practices to a commercial scale operation.

One could argue economics and management differences all day, but at the end of the day, the one who has actually lived it, done it, experienced it and found it successful~in their backyard flock~is the only one who can say if they have saved money or lost it in their endeavors.

I, for one, have not lost any money on my husbandry practices or I would not bother to raise the chickens...as you say, you could buy them cheaper. But..can you really? Can you really buy free ranged, all naturally raised, humanely treated chicken for the same price that you can raise them at home? Have you priced that meat in the store? Do you trust their claims of how they were raised? I have~ and I don't.

If I wanted commercially fed, housed and medicated chicken that had been grown in disease infested, crowded commercial chicken houses, then the cost of buying vs. raising them would be no question~I'd just buy the substandard chicken from the store and roll on.

The big boys can produce that chicken cheaper, by all means, though you and I will always disagree on just what "good management" entails, I'm afraid.

I will continue to be polite and discuss this rationally. Bee, how do you define a hobby? If it costs more to raise a chicken than buying it, I'm calling it a hobby. So, maybe we need to discuss the differences between "backyard hobby" and trying to supplement your income. If you want to say that OT's are backyard chicken hobbyists with years of experience in that area, I agree.