Chickens for 10-20 years or more? Pull up a rockin' chair and lay some wisdom on us!

[Dead Rabbit]

i enjoy the small tidbits that are out of the ordinary that a few early on posted up. but i must say, this thread has made me come back to this site and actually enjoy it. it has taken the basic run of mill ho-hum type information to another level that i never expected from this site. and displace alot of the assumed information that runs amuck on the typical poultry sites. i really do appreciate this thread, and wish some of the earlier posters would chime in again.

 

[Dead Rabbit]

as for vinegar, from my experience, its not all its cracked up to be. i do believe it helps with digestion, hence on rare occasions i put it in the auto. watering system for my meat rabbits. better digestion, means more feed consumption, means quicker weight gain. i also believe vinegar works as a cleaning agent, so i will also on rare occasions put it in all types of waterers. but other than those two instances, i havent proven to myself that it really works as claimed by some.

i have been told that it helps prevent cocci in chicks. but its not near powerful enuff to stop a full blown case of cocci. ive seen that to be the case some yrs back. other than the one instance ive not had any trouble with cocci, so i cant readily say whether it helps that well or not.

 

[WI FarmChick]

I disagree.......................as for vinegar, from my experience, its not all its cracked up to be.

I do know for me .....that ACV is great for pushing toxins out of a persons body. I have been using ACV for quite along time for my personal use as a tea. 1 cup hot water, 2Tb ACV & 2Tb honey. It makes your system more alkaline, so the bad things can't "grow".

I use this tea at the first sign of a urinary infection. I have used it on more than a few times in my life and works perfectly. With in a day or so it is gone.

I do not go to the doctor at every whim. We do not have health insurance....We also use animal antibiotics if needed. Ear infections etc. much cheaper.

My family is very healthy (thanking our lord) we do not get sick often. I have not had a cold in more than 3 years. My husband had a cold last year (he works more with the public). our daughter has not been sick in 2 years (she attends a local school so she is also exposed to the public.

I also make an natural first aid cream with bees wax, comfrey root, golden seal, and olive oil. This is used for our cuts/burns. I know this works, as I burnt my self really bad when canning last year. I laid my arm on top of my pressure canner lid reaching for the pot on the back burner. I applied my salve and with in 20 min. no more pain.

So I know first hand that ACV and other Medicinal herbs and tinctures work when used correctly.

 

[Beekissed]

I think that, in using ACV for cocci, it works better as a preventative. Cocci is normally present in every mammal's bowel flora..it only becomes dangerous when it has an overgrowth. This can happen in cases where the animal has had a wide spectrum antibiotic dosage, scours, etc. All these things can create an environment that has diminished the "good" bacteria that are present in the intestines that help with the digestion of our foods. These good bacteria also hold back the growth of the bacteria such as e.coli, coccidia, salmonella, etc.

All vinegar and other fermented foods do is replace and replenish our naturally occurring good flora. Cocci isn't "contagious" as one would imagine, as it is present in every farm animal and in the soils of all farms....it is when the balance of existing microorganisms is upset that problems appear. Thus why a good deep litter system promotes good bacterial growth that holds in check the bad bacteria...it actually inhibits their growth.

When people claim that a chicken they brought home gave their flock cocci, I always shake my head....their flock already had cocci, but the new chicken may have been carrying a heavier load of cocci bacteria than their coop, soil, flock can handle as they don't have enough of the good bacteria in the animal, in the soil, in the coop to combat the bad. Hence the exact reason that the more you bleach and kill off all the good bacteria, the more you have to deal with the bad...they grow quicker, particularly without the good bacteria inhibiting their growth.

The whole premise of raising a flock with good immune systems, with healthy digestive tracts that carry a full load of healthy, good microorganisms, with good exposure to air, light, fresh soil.....all that is preventative. It naturally inhibits the overgrowth of dangerous bacteria, both in their environment and in their bodies.

So...if you are looking for ACV to be the cure all when you find yourself with a cocci overgrowth..sorry, it won't "fix" it. Fixing it should have started before you ever got an overgrowth and expecting the ACV will correct poor management of soil, coop and flocks will be a failed experiment.

What causes that overgrowth?

Overstocking chickens in a coop, run or on range will cause an environment that promotes the conditions for an overgrowth of dangerous microorganisms.

Giving medicated feeds and slopping the antibiotics or anti-protozoal meds to your chickens at the first sign of the sniffles.

Wet, barren runs with concentrated fecal matter in the soils.

Bleaching every surface to rid it of ALL germs..particularly the good ones.

Deworming often...if it's powerful enough to kill worms, it has some effect on your chicken's health.

.....all these things that I see discussed on this forum on a daily basis and are touted as "good" animal husbandry are the very things that are promoting these types of illnesses. And their solution? To do more of the same...bleach, medicate, isolate birds in small cages/pens, etc. Can no one see the vicious cycle?

All the things I do not do...and I have never had any illnesses in my flocks all these years. I don't think that is chance, luck, anecdotal, an exception or anything else people claim. It's called preventative management and it really, truly works.

 

[WI FarmChick]

I agree..............Prevention is the best medicine.

I do not have any form of "hand sanitizer" in my home. Just good ole soap. I do not "bleach" their coop or my house.

Like Beekissed said....It will throw the everything out of balance.

A Healthy immune system is everything. With out it, your sick. I believe this applies to animals as well.

 

[PetRock]

I'm a firm believer in prevention with both my animals and my family. But what would you do if you did have an outbreak of cocci? I am a chicken newbie compared to all of you OTs and have only had chickens for 2 years. I have not had any problems with cocci until this past week. I've lost 2 chicks in my brooder and had 2 other ones recover from it.

 

[stonykill]

you asked yesterday what we learned. This right here is the most important thing I learned.

I think that, in using ACV for cocci, it works better as a preventative. Cocci is normally present in every mammal's bowel flora..it only becomes dangerous when it has an overgrowth. This can happen in cases where the animal has had a wide spectrum antibiotic dosage, scours, etc. All these things can create an environment that has diminished the "good" bacteria that are present in the intestines that help with the digestion of our foods. These good bacteria also hold back the growth of the bacteria such as e.coli, coccidia, salmonella, etc.

All vinegar and other fermented foods do is replace and replenish our naturally occurring good flora. Cocci isn't "contagious" as one would imagine, as it is present in every farm animal and in the soils of all farms....it is when the balance of existing microorganisms is upset that problems appear. Thus why a good deep litter system promotes good bacterial growth that holds in check the bad bacteria...it actually inhibits their growth.

When people claim that a chicken they brought home gave their flock cocci, I always shake my head....their flock already had cocci, but the new chicken may have been carrying a heavier load of cocci bacteria than their coop, soil, flock can handle as they don't have enough of the good bacteria in the animal, in the soil, in the coop to combat the bad. Hence the exact reason that the more you bleach and kill off all the good bacteria, the more you have to deal with the bad...they grow quicker, particularly without the good bacteria inhibiting their growth.

The whole premise of raising a flock with good immune systems, with healthy digestive tracts that carry a full load of healthy, good microorganisms, with good exposure to air, light, fresh soil.....all that is preventative. It naturally inhibits the overgrowth of dangerous bacteria, both in their environment and in their bodies.

So...if you are looking for ACV to be the cure all when you find yourself with a cocci overgrowth..sorry, it won't "fix" it. Fixing it should have started before you ever got an overgrowth and expecting the ACV will correct poor management of soil, coop and flocks will be a failed experiment.

What causes that overgrowth?

Overstocking chickens in a coop, run or on range will cause an environment that promotes the conditions for an overgrowth of dangerous microorganisms.

Giving medicated feeds and slopping the antibiotics or anti-protozoal meds to your chickens at the first sign of the sniffles.

Wet, barren runs with concentrated fecal matter in the soils.

Bleaching every surface to rid it of ALL germs..particularly the good ones.

Deworming often(yes, many deworming agents have a mild laxative action so that the dead worm load is expelled and doesn't clog up the works).

.....all these things that I see discussed on this forum on a daily basis and are touted as "good" animal husbandry are the very things that are promoting these types of illnesses. And their solution? To do more of the same...bleach, medicate, isolate birds in small cages/pens, etc. Can no one see the vicious cycle?

All the things I do not do...and I have never had any illnesses in my flocks all these years. I don't think that is chance, luck, anecdotal, an exception or anything else people claim. It's called preventative management and it really, truly works.

 

[flocksalot]

Ok, so yesterday I did some things that I KNOW better, but did anyway. Here's how it went......just bare in mind this is not normally how I do things.

I ran to the hatchery to pick up my first 100 meat birds and 15 turkeys. It was quite chilly yesterday, so when I got them home I needed to get them all warm, but I had NOTHING prepared. I had been up the night before cleaning 47 dozen eggs for the next days pickup and due to my ever increasing pain from Fibromyalgia I was struggling. So I had nothing set up, but wasn't really concerned as I planned to keep them in the (yup I'm gonna say it) house for a couple of days due to some cool temps scheduled. My brooders are all currently full and those two days will give me a chance to build a couple more. What can I say my plate is always full. Anyway, my MIL was coming to pick up my son for a few days and she arrived just after we got home. She wanted to get going and also wanted to go have breakfast, so I put all the babies together in a large container with bedding, light, and stupid me left water in there too. Well after breakfast I got back and had to let the chickens out of their coops, check the young ones and let the horses out. I then had a customer stop for eggs and wanted a tour which we regularly do, so they got shown around and then came on up the hill the see the turkeys (the big pets....yes they are my pets and I'm proud of it) and watch me let the ducks and geese out. Then we went into the house to see the chicks and poults. Well just think about it now. I had babies and water. They had tipped the waterer over somehow and every single chick/poult was soaked. Two had drowned. You might think what was she thinking. That's just the thing I wasn't really, but I got them out and back into their shipping crates, put them in the sun (move over tomatoes) and put their light over them. Then I had to sit and dry each chick/poult. The turkeys were barely breathing, but amazingly I lost none yet. I've lost two more chicks one overnight and one this morning, but the rest are eating, sleeping,drinking and pooping like only little meat birds can do. There is one I will keep an eye on, but the rest should fair fine. Tomorrow they should have a new brooder to stink up and I can have my laundry room back. The turkeys I'm likely to try to keep in the house a bit longer, but that's because I love my turkeys. I have parrots so I'm used to cleaning up poop in the house, but once those turkeys start stinking they will be relegated to the greenhouse with the others. Besides that I have turkey eggs hatching in 4 weeks so the need to make room.

My point of this is to say that we all make mistakes, we all do things differently, and we all view what and how we do things as right or wrong depending on the outcome. Some of you would never keep 100 chicks in you home for a couple of days. Especially a just built home. I have no problems with it and will continue as long as my husband doesn't throw me out on my ear to live in the various coops we have. Well he may not like it, but I'm the one doing all the work and he knows that it makes our son and me very happy. So share what you have experienced even if you are new to or seriously old hat at it. Do it the way you are comfortable or feel is the best, but don't think someone else is wrong just because it's not your way. And last but not least respect all knowledge whether it came from an old timer from the beginning or an old timer that had other fish to fry during that time. If you believe what you are doing is working for you do it. Don't change things every time the wind blows a different direction. You will be doing more harm than good that way.

Now to get my husband to bring his miter saw up from the basement so I don't have to cut things down there or I will have another mess to clean, and believe me with meat birds there is plenty of that going on right now.l

 

[Beekissed]

I'm a firm believer in prevention with both my animals and my family. But what would you do if you did have an outbreak of cocci? I am a chicken newbie compared to all of you OTs and have only had chickens for 2 years. I have not had any problems with cocci until this past week. I've lost 2 chicks in my brooder and had 2 other ones recover from it.

Now..see...I don't call that an outbreak...I call it natural selection. An outbreak would be your whole flock coming down with the same malady....at which time all the animals whose immune systems and bowel flora was not at appropriate health levels would die. All those that were, would live. If most die, you need to examine what you can do to improve the immunities of the next flock, to improve the environment so that there won't be an imbalance of the microorganisms living there, to improve bowel cultures to prevent any further overgrowth.

Those chick that survived will be your keepers. They have strong immunities, strong genetics, healthy bowel function.

The biggest mistake I see on here are folks medicating those sick birds with high powered antibiotics...which just creates a bowel environment for more regrowth of the same or even regrowth of other bad organisms like salmonella.

For now, I'd make sure your flock has some good probiotics...I prefer the live kind found in the UP/ACV, rather than the dried and needing to be reconstituted in the animal's system kind that is sold at the feed store. It takes time for good bacteria to grow enough to be able to inhibit the growth of the bad. All the while, the bad organisms are present in every stool sample being dropped down the ol' chocolate whiz-way. They are being deposited in your bedding, your soil, your roosts, etc. If you don't have a healthy growth of the good bacterias in these places, the baddies have found a place to grow until another chicken comes along and tracks them into the nest, feed, water, bedding, etc.

It's good to look at your flock as part of a whole system instead of just a single bird or flock...they live symbiotically within their provided ecosystem. It's a good thing to think about the health of the soils under their feet, the bacterial growth in the bedding/housing, the feeds and their freshness(pre-bagged feed is a poor choice if you can avoid it), the space, light and air in their housing and environment. A lot of bacteria dies a natural death when exposed to sunlight and air...if there is any way to increase these factors in your animal husbandry, it always pays off.

Some of the coops I see on here look like little dungeons with the only openings in the pop door and tiny windows or vents...and they are insulated and heated in the winter. Excellent ways to grow a healthy crop of bad bacteria and let it flourish even in the winter time. In the summer, the same applies. The worst? They pack it with 3 -5 hens and they have a teeny-tiny little run under the teeny-tiny little coop. It's a crying shame that folks can't see all that for what it is...a petri dish for bad microorganism growth.

 

[PetRock]

Thank you for the shared wisdom, Beekissed! I appreciate this thread and have learned so much from it! The chicks that I have dying are in an inside brooder. I have lost 2 out of 10 one to four week old chicks. They have plenty of ventilation, plenty of space, clean bedding, clean water, and the correct temperature. They have not been outside at all and came from breeders who did not have them outside. As soon as the first one showed signs of being sick, I started giving them live culture, plain yogurt mixed with their chick starter. Hopefully, the good bacteria in the yogurt will help them survive! This is the first group of chicks that I haven't put ACV into their water. I guess I've learned a lesson the hard way.