Coccidios Not Responding to Corid or Sulmet

[seminolewind]

You are still hatching eggs. Your chickens are still dying. Your necropsy report does not appear to be thorough or done by the right people.

We could discuss Marek's for days (of precious time) or you could get a necropsy out fast to the right place, a state animal disease lab, and put an end to these sad multiple deaths. You are beyond homemade cures.

90 posts already, please do your chickens some good and get a necropsy .

Leadwolf1, great that you've continued to suggest a necropsy-the right thing to do

 

[centrarchid]

Yes, having an individual well versed in chicken pathology should be done. Will not only provide more credible assessment but also cost less.

 

[chicknadventure]

I agree that another necropsy would be helpful.

I had 4 necropsied to make SURE that everything was caught. and only 2 of the 4 actually had the underlying issue/disease. The other 2 showed the same symptoms but had a less dramatic underlying issue.

 

[seminolewind]

I have one that is not eating, bright green watery poo, looks like another Marek's (latent) victim. I'm all set to send this one out. Just double checking. She's been off feed here and there for the past year. I wonder if I should move the other 4. 2 are vaccinated, 2 are resistant .

 

[Haunted55]

You are still hatching eggs. Your chickens are still dying. Your necropsy report does not appear to be thorough or done by the right people.

We could discuss Marek's for days (of precious time) or you could get a necropsy out fast to the right place, a state animal disease lab, and put an end to these sad multiple deaths. You are beyond homemade cures.

90 posts already, please do your chickens some good and get a necropsy .

Leadwolf1, great that you've continued to suggest a necropsy-the right thing to do

Yes, having an individual well versed in chicken pathology should be done. Will not only provide more credible assessment but also cost less.

I agree that another necropsy would be helpful.

I had 4 necropsied to make SURE that everything was caught. and only 2 of the 4 actually had the underlying issue/disease. The other 2 showed the same symptoms but had a less dramatic underlying issue.

I agree that a necropsy by someone else would be the best thing to have done. As this was the State of Maine Diagnostic Lab, I am considering contacting the same people that Leadwolf uses as she has given me the contact information. Problem is, right now not a one is showing symptoms that would make me even consider sacrificing another bird. None of these birds have any issues with paralysis, their eyes, or their feathers right now.

This is why I am hatching more birds. I am trying to replicate what happened this spring and summer. there are 2 birds who have not been vaccinated for Marek's. Not the 13 I had this Spring, but all I can stomach right now. On the 10th, I will have 15 eggs to go into the hatcher. These birds will be vaccinated for Marek's. A bit of a time difference but not by much. All birds are getting medicated feed so cocci shouldn't even come into play and these birds will be in my home for 2 months so that the conditions will be the same. When they are moved into the chicken house they will still receive the medicated feed for another month so they will have every opportunity to build immunity.

I am noticing that the birds that hatched are slower than normal. I have no idea what it means nor for the reason why I didn't even get 50% from the first hatch. it's just the way it is. We'll see how next one goes.

The first sign of paralysis, the bird showing is going. The feed has been changed, they are getting vitamins and electrolytes, same as in the Spring. the only difference will be the feed, Blue Seal instead of Dumor. If one of the older birds shows sign, they'll go. At this time I am unable or willing to do more.

I am sorry if this isn't something you agree with. I have spoken to a couple of people who are Vets and one who is working with Marek's in a lab. What I am doing is what I was told to do by all three. Now it's a waiting game. If it is Marek's, as I believe, these birds are going to be symptomatic very soon. Vaccinated or not. At that time I will send for more necropsies, 3-4 birds when symptoms show, and will be sure to post the results.

 

[seminolewind]

I'm sorry if my post offended you.. That was not my intention. My intention was to offer advice. Not to judge or think about whether I agree or not. My advice is usually what I would do in the situation. I would be sending a bird to a lab for animal disease. Any vet who does not have a career in animal disease should not give diagnoses, and do need a bird from you. I think we all just want you to be on the right track.

 

[leadwolf1]

Sounds like a plan. I wouldn't sacrifice a bird either. What I do want to caution you on is this. Medicated feed will not protect them from Coccidia. It will only aid in the prevention of the disease. If there is a nasty strain of Coccidia that you are dealing with or if the number of oocysts multiplies to a great extent, the medicated feed will not prevent them from coming down with the illness. Since you will be giving vitamins along with the medicated feed, there will even be a greater chance of the chickens getting Coccidiosis. Amprolium blocks the production of Vitamin B which 'starves' the Coccidia. By giving the chicks vitamins, you are destroying the effects of the medication. Just an FYI.

I hope you aren't upset. We have been doing a lot of brainstorming, Seminolewind and I, trying to figure out what is going on with your flock. We are all in this war together!

I am at a loss. Your chickens aren't exhibiting any of the same things that any of mine did. My chickens all grow at a normal rate, actually they are bigger then my daughter's, lay at the normal time and are fat until the disease symptoms appear. Actually, quite a few have died at normal weight for their breed. This is all new to me. I've never seen or read of Marek's taken birds in groups...it is usually 1 - 2 at a time and they die on different days. Out of the birds I've lost, there was only one day that I lost two together.

Please call New Bolton. Maybe, they could do some work with tissue and blood samples with no need for euthanizing the birds. My wish for you is to discover what is happening the sooner, the better.

I agree that a necropsy by someone else would be the best thing to have done. As this was the State of Maine Diagnostic Lab, I am considering contacting the same people that Leadwolf uses as she has given me the contact information. Problem is, right now not a one is showing symptoms that would make me even consider sacrificing another bird. None of these birds have any issues with paralysis, their eyes, or their feathers right now.

This is why I am hatching more birds. I am trying to replicate what happened this spring and summer. there are 2 birds who have not been vaccinated for Marek's. Not the 13 I had this Spring, but all I can stomach right now. On the 10th, I will have 15 eggs to go into the hatcher. These birds will be vaccinated for Marek's. A bit of a time difference but not by much. All birds are getting medicated feed so cocci shouldn't even come into play and these birds will be in my home for 2 months so that the conditions will be the same. When they are moved into the chicken house they will still receive the medicated feed for another month so they will have every opportunity to build immunity.

I am noticing that the birds that hatched are slower than normal. I have no idea what it means nor for the reason why I didn't even get 50% from the first hatch. it's just the way it is. We'll see how next one goes.

The first sign of paralysis, the bird showing is going. The feed has been changed, they are getting vitamins and electrolytes, same as in the Spring. the only difference will be the feed, Blue Seal instead of Dumor. If one of the older birds shows sign, they'll go. At this time I am unable or willing to do more.

I am sorry if this isn't something you agree with. I have spoken to a couple of people who are Vets and one who is working with Marek's in a lab. What I am doing is what I was told to do by all three. Now it's a waiting game. If it is Marek's, as I believe, these birds are going to be symptomatic very soon. Vaccinated or not. At that time I will send for more necropsies, 3-4 birds when symptoms show, and will be sure to post the results.

 

[Haunted55]

I'm sorry if my post offended you.. That was not my intention. My intention was to offer advice. Not to judge or think about whether I agree or not. My advice is usually what I would do in the situation. I would be sending a bird to a lab for animal disease. Any vet who does not have a career in animal disease should not give diagnoses, and do need a bird from you. I think we all just want you to be on the right track.

I agree totally about being on the right track, but right now I have no one who is showing the symptoms that we saw in the early summer. All I am seeing are birds that may or may not recover from the cocci or bad food. Whichever it may be. Food has been changed, we'll see if a change comes for these poor buggers.

I still have two birds who were from TS and not vaccinated. Also, five that were my hatch. Patty, my smallest bird is the most likely to show symptoms. She is a partridge plymouth rock from TS and as I have said before, she isn't much larger than a softball. Right now she is fine, ranging with the older birds and quite happy. This little bird has gone around the block and back again. I cannot offer her up when she is thriving and content despite her handicaps. She probably will never produce eggs or any offspring. That's okay with me, she's a lovey who sings the other birds to sleep at night.

Your post didn't offend me, I'm just frustrated. The bird that was sent had no paralysis, or any other symptoms of the Marek's except for the small size. She was one that was vaccinated at Mt. Healthy. The ones that died before or were culled were definitely paralyzed, no question.

 

[seminolewind]

I know it's frustrating. And moreso with not knowing. And with Marek's (if that's what it is) there are so many diseases that just see the opportunity to overwhelm a bird with a poor immune system, one being coccidiosis, and bacterial infections from bacteria normally found on a bird but they rapidly take over with a damaged immune system. It's so confusing and frustrating sometimes I'd just like to pull my hair out. My next demise is going to a lab. That's the only way I'll know for sure that I have Marek's.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

After calling the college, I finally got a copy of the necropsy report emailed to me. A lot of what is in here is not what was said during the phone call after the Vet had finished the necropsy and right now I don't know what to think. I'll put it here and maybe you can get something out of it that I may be missing.


Species: Avian,Chicken
Black Jersey Giant hen, 22 weeks old, died Friday, Sept 21; arrived at the lab via mail on Sept. 26, necropsy on Sept. 27. body weight 1.5 lbs.; skin in the abdominal area was green-blueish discolored.
Breast muscles were thin and keel bone was prominent but firm and straight. Feathers below the vent were moderately soiled with fecal matter and urates.
The leg bones were firm and the feet clean. The beak was prominent. There was some mucus in the nasal passages.
Remnants of the thymus gland and bursa of Fabricius were of normal size for this age.
Cervical nerves, brachial, lumbar, sciatic plexus, Remaks and sciatic nerve showed no gross abnormalities.
Size and shape of the liver was normal. There was a small, lentil sized nodule on the ventral margin of the left liver lobe.
The spleen was slightly enlarged (in relation to the size of the bird) and mottled and pale. The ovary was underdeveloped for this age. The kidney was pale brown with no apparent lesions.
There a small amount of mucus in the trachea and bronchial bifurcation. The lungs were of normal pink color, but slightly edematous. There was one pinhead sized pale spot in the right lobe with a 1 mm wide reddish ring around it.
The bone marrow in the femur was pale.
There were no apparent lesions in the esophagus. The crop was filled with yellowish slightly moist mash resembling chicken feed. The lining of the esophagus, crop, and proventriculus was w/o apparent lesions. There was little feed in the gizzard and some grit pebbles.
The pancreas showed no apparent lesions.
The abdominal cavity was filled will rather large, moist and distended intestines and the wall of the mid section small intestines was reddish discolored. The intestines contained a moderate amount of mucus and small amount of undigested feed. The mucus of the midsection of the small intestines was of reddish color and contained a moderate to high amount of coccidia oocysts and some irregular crystals.
Summary of the Findings:

Intestinal coccidiosis
Anemia
No lesions suggestive of Marek’s disease
Severe retardation and loss of muscle mass
Conclusions:

None of the gross pathological lesions, including the coccidiosis, can fully explain the extremely severe retardation of the body size of the bird.
Marek’s disease was not the cause of death or retardation.
Drug overdosing may be a factor in the anemia.
Nutrient imbalance or deficiency in the feed may be a factor (feed sample analysis is recommended).
Other advices:

1. use of any vaccine other than Marek’s vaccines should be discontinued..
2. Use Chick starter feed medicated feed for 8 weeks; chick grower feed with 14 to 16% protein and coccidiosis medication up to 16 weeks and non-medicated feed thereafter.
3. Make sure feed and water is available ad lib for growing birds
4. Cull severely retarded birds. They will not catch up even under best circumstances and will remain seeders of problems, such as coccidia oocysts, because of their lower immune defenses.

The "other advices" they list here, although I'm sure to be sound, isn't so easy to follow after watchin' these birds struggle through ...
Sifting through the ninety-some posts yeilded that etymology report, which seems to confirm those strongest suspicions we were both havin' way back when (sorry for not responding throughout, but I'd been quickly checkin' in when I could).
The findings raise a few questions, from what I've seen ...
From what I have found, and despite what it suggests, the results themselves are consistent with what results when parasites continue to feed on what your chicken was meant to. The chemicals could have hindered development as well (i.e. blocking thiamine uptake to starve the coccidia may well result in a deficiency of B1 in the chicken, which is why my keets are gettin' the same supplimental feed that showbirds normally get). Also, there is one particular strain that the nodules appear from, but it's most often common to geese ... could it be that they've ruled out the actual one(s) that led to these later symptoms, just because it's not "as likely" as those commonly found w/in chickens?
As to the vet previously claiming that the bird(s) submitted "...had never been exposed [to Merek's]," having the bird die of other symptoms/causes is no guarantee that it was not a carrier of it -- wouldn't that be no different than if I claimed to have not been exposed to the most recent strain(s) of the flu, just because I didn't notice havin' any of the usual symptoms?
Again, I'm gonna say: You have done everything I coulda thought of, and far more than most woulda done. Even in hind-sight, it remains clear to me that this IS NOT your fault.
I noticed elsewhere you showed your respect for our elders, as you wondered why they often painted the walls and floors of hen houses -- that's where that ol' 1915 book comes in handy, although many of the things they did back then aren't even legal now (due to the chemicals involved). On Page 204 of External Parasites, Diseases of Poultry, they suggest the first spray used is a repeated coatings containing kerosene or cresol, then "... the roosting boards, nests, floors and walls to a height of about 5 feet are thoroughly sprayed with the lice paint (kerosene oil and crude carbolic acid)."

After that, you might well be wonderin' how it is that I can find such an obsure little-known/unimportant detail as this, but can't seem to provide you with any real answers, for which I apologize. But, yours is likely one of those more isolated cases, where the infection(s) are aggrevated by the treatment(s), due to the common cure not affecting the true cause <-- sorta reminds me of the upcoming Presidential Election.