Cochin SOP breeding, advice?

[Party_Chicken]

I have 8 black bantam Cochins 4 cockerels and 4 pullets. I intend on breeding them to the SOP but some of them carry some pretty interesting genes. There father was a black silked cochin roo there mothers were a mottled Cochin bantam and what I assume is a frizzed calico Cochin. (I’ll attach pics below). I plan on breeding them to the black color so the ones that inherited some mottling shouldn’t be breed correct? I have two cockerels with some white feathers on the feet and there chest one that’s mostly black but he has some brown leakage and a leg issue. My last cockerel is an all black one so I’m most likely going to keep him. I have one black frizzle pullet that I want to keep so I can breed that gene. My three other pullets are hard to tell apart so depending on how they place in my local fair is how I will decide who to keep. I do also want to breed the silked gene that there father had I know someone on here breeds silked Cochins I don’t exactly remember who though but if they see this any advice they have would be greatly appreciated! And the lighting is not ideal right now I got three pictures before it got dark I’ll get the rest tomorrow. Apologies if there blurry they wouldn’t stay still

Edit did some research and saw that @pipdzipdnreadytogo was the one who breeds the silked Cochins

 

[Party_Chicken]

Got some more pictures if anyone wants up close pictures of any of them let me know.

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

I did not receive your tag, but fortunately I try to read all the new threads that pop up in this section just in case I can help.

Take this all with a grain of salt, I'm fairly new to this whole selecting toward the SOP thing as well. I only really started selecting toward the standard with my birds in 2022 and it's been a lot, I definitely don't feel like anywhere close to an expert at it yet. However, here's what I'm thinking based on the genetics, the materials I've collected for my own birds, and the experience I've had so far with them.

More than likely, the chicks from your frizzle hen will not be good for breeding toward SOP coloring. Because she, herself, is colorful, she most likely will impart color leakage in her offspring with a Black rooster, and that can be tough to breed out later on. Frizzled Black Cochin bantams are not super hard to find, so I would advise you look for a good-quality frizzled Black hen to add to your breeding group if you want to maintain frizzling in your flock, and move the current frizzle hen out of the breeding group if possible.

On the mottling, that's a recessive gene, so while mottling can show up sometimes in the juvenile feathering of birds that are split for the gene, it generally molts out in the adult plumage. I would hold onto the ones that have some mottling and see what happens with them. The gene likely could be carried in your line and pop up again later on, but in a first generation cross they will all carry the gene anyway, so culling just for that doesn't make much sense, at least not to me.

The ones with color leakage in the neck like you showed in your first post, those probably should not be kept for breeding. That's the kind of color leakage that's hard to get rid of once you've got it in a line, so it's best to cull hard when it shows up. It's possible more of it will show up in others, especially out of the frizzled hen, as your birds mature, so just keep an eye on them for that. If all of them were fathered by the silkied male, then all of them will carry the silkie-feather gene, so no worries about losing that just yet.

The little ones are still young to judge for me beyond color, but they look pretty good so far! I do see a couple that have undersized cushions and some that are a bit light in the middle toe feathering, but wow, look at that thick outer leg feathering!!

What you'll be looking for with them is a nice, spherical shape from all angles. Your Mottled hen looks pretty round, though lacking in cushion from what I can see there, and I have no experience with frizzles so I can't say much on her either, but your rooster is definitely missing a lot of fluff. He's too 'chicken-shaped' for a Cochin. My birds are very, very much still a work in progress, but here is an example of one of my better birds, Inara. Notice particularly that her legs are pretty much completely disguised in her fluff, and her tail does not stick out very far past her fluff, giving her an overall circular appearance. She does have her head withdrawn a bit in this picture, but the cushoin should be about even with the eye in height when in a more natural pose. She is not perfect by far, she could use more fullness in the breast to really complete that circular look, and her cushion could be fluffier still in order to properly hide her wing tips, but this is what I'm working with at the moment.

Hope that helped some! Good luck with your project! I'll definitely be following if it involves my beloved silkied Cochins.

 

[Party_Chicken]

I did not receive your tag, but fortunately I try to read all the new threads that pop up in this section just in case I can help.

Take this all with a grain of salt, I'm fairly new to this whole selecting toward the SOP thing as well. I only really started selecting toward the standard with my birds in 2022 and it's been a lot, I definitely don't feel like anywhere close to an expert at it yet. However, here's what I'm thinking based on the genetics, the materials I've collected for my own birds, and the experience I've had so far with them.

More than likely, the chicks from your frizzle hen will not be good for breeding toward SOP coloring. Because she, herself, is colorful, she most likely will impart color leakage in her offspring with a Black rooster, and that can be tough to breed out later on. Frizzled Black Cochin bantams are not super hard to find, so I would advise you look for a good-quality frizzled Black hen to add to your breeding group if you want to maintain frizzling in your flock, and move the current frizzle hen out of the breeding group if possible.

I do want to breed the frizzle gene onto some of my goofy looking birds like the polish or spitzhaubens and possibly onto my marans as well. I took an extra good look at the pullets today and two of them have a brown dusting of sorts on there wing tips so i decided those were a cull. My first generation I want to focus on feet feathering and color.

On the mottling, that's a recessive gene, so while mottling can show up sometimes in the juvenile feathering of birds that are split for the gene, it generally molts out in the adult plumage. I would hold onto the ones that have some mottling and see what happens with them. The gene likely could be carried in your line and pop up again later on, but in a first generation cross they will all carry the gene anyway, so culling just for that doesn't make much sense, at least not to me.

Ok I’m fairly new to this so thanks for the tip! I did love the mottling so if there’s a way to get that that would be amazing.

The ones with color leakage in the neck like you showed in your first post, those probably should not be kept for breeding. That's the kind of color leakage that's hard to get rid of once you've got it in a line, so it's best to cull hard when it shows up.

He also has a wacky kind of leg defect which made him a cull from the first time I saw it.

It's possible more of it will show up in others, especially out of the frizzled hen, as your birds mature, so just keep an eye on them for that. If all of them were fathered by the silkied male, then all of them will carry the silkie-feather gene, so no worries about losing that just yet.

That’s good I was concerned at first when it didn’t pop up in any of the chicks but someone said it was a recessive gene which made me decide to start the project!

The little ones are still young to judge for me beyond color, but they look pretty good so far! I do see a couple that have undersized cushions and some that are a bit light in the middle toe feathering, but wow, look at that thick outer leg feathering!!

My one all black cockerel Einstein has the best feet feathering and coloring but I did notice his cushioning isn’t very good. The other pullet named Febreze I'm keeping has good cushioning from what I can tell if I’m wrong let me know. She has good feathering and coloring.

What you'll be looking for with them is a nice, spherical shape from all angles. Your Mottled hen looks pretty round, though lacking in cushion from what I can see there, and I have no experience with frizzles so I can't say much on her either, but your rooster is definitely missing a lot of fluff. He's too 'chicken-shaped' for a Cochin.

I wish they were my birds but I did get them off a lady in facebook marketplace and that picture is the only one I have so I’ve been looking it over to try and decide what chick belongs to which hen.

My birds are very, very much still a work in progress, but here is an example of one of my better birds, Inara. Notice particularly that her legs are pretty much completely disguised in her fluff, and her tail does not stick out very far past her fluff, giving her an overall circular appearance. She does have her head withdrawn a bit in this picture, but the cushoin should be about even with the eye in height when in a more natural pose. She is not perfect by far, she could use more fullness in the breast to really complete that circular look, and her cushion could be fluffier still in order to properly hide her wing tips, but this is what I'm working with at the moment.

View attachment 3818522

Hope that helped some! Good luck with your project! I'll definitely be following if it involves my beloved silkied Cochins.

Thank you! I’ve also been looking over your thread for a bit and that’s helped me a lot!

 

[Party_Chicken]

My top two birds

Einstein ( the name is very ironic considering he’s possibly the dumbest bird I’ve ever seen)

This is Ferbreeze my little brother named her so I might change her name later on

 

[Party_Chicken]

So I think I found someone to take the bad cockerel. They take care of disabled chickens and she’s looking for someone to keep her pullet company so we are waiting for a response but so far that’s the first cull

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

Ok I’m fairly new to this so thanks for the tip! I did love the mottling so if there’s a way to get that that would be amazing.

All of them out of the Mottled hen carry the gene, so breeding them together should bring mottling back out, if you know which are from which hen.

That’s good I was concerned at first when it didn’t pop up in any of the chicks but someone said it was a recessive gene which made me decide to start the project!

Yup, silkied feathering is recessive! First generation cross of silkied to smooth like your birds will all carry the gene, so breeding them together should get you about 1 in 4 chicks with silkied feathering.

I wish they were my birds but I did get them off a lady in facebook marketplace and that picture is the only one I have so I’ve been looking it over to try and decide what chick belongs to which hen.

Oh, whoops, my mistake! It'll be tough to be sure which came from which hen, unfortunately, other than the ones that have frizzled feathering must have come from the frizzle. The faux-mottling on some of them is a likely indication that they came from the Mottled hen, but sometimes that doesn't show up, so it's possible that others will carry the gene as well.

Thank you! I’ve also been looking over your thread for a bit and that’s helped me a lot!

Ah, glad it could help!

My top two birds

Einstein ( the name is very ironic considering he’s possibly the dumbest bird I’ve ever seen)
View attachment 3818582View attachment 3818583



This is Ferbreeze my little brother named her so I might change her name later on
View attachment 3818584
View attachment 3818585

Love them! Einstein has fantastic foot feathering!! Gotta love those ironic names. Poor boys, they sometimes forget to use their brains.

Definitely keep as many as possible to grow out. Type can change a lot as they grow, so some of the ones that look iffy now might fill in beautifully and vice versa. I think mine were at least 10 months old before I was comfortable making final cuts for my breeding pens.

 

[Party_Chicken]

All of them out of the Mottled hen carry the gene, so breeding them together should bring mottling back out, if you know which are from which hen.

So if I kept a mottled cockerel as well as Einstein I could get some mottled birds? Then cochin pullet I picked out has some white wing tips and some on her feet it’s just not very easy to see.

Yup, silkied feathering is recessive! First generation cross of silkied to smooth like your birds will all carry the gene, so breeding them together should get you about 1 in 4 chicks with silkied feathering.

So if I breed two silked after that will all baby’s be silked?

Oh, whoops, my mistake! It'll be tough to be sure which came from which hen, unfortunately, other than the ones that have frizzled feathering must have come from the frizzle. The faux-mottling on some of them is a likely indication that they came from the Mottled hen, but sometimes that doesn't show up, so it's possible that others will carry the gene as well.

Ah, glad it could help!




Love them! Einstein has fantastic foot feathering!! Gotta love those ironic names. Poor boys, they sometimes forget to use their brains.

Definitely keep as many as possible to grow out. Type can change a lot as they grow, so some of the ones that look iffy now might fill in beautifully and vice versa. I think mine were at least 10 months old before I was comfortable making final cuts for my breeding pens.

So they’ll be about 6 and a half months by the time of my local fair and I do have to get rid of some to maintain space as I don’t have much land. I only have runs and three coops.

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

So if I kept a mottled cockerel as well as Einstein I could get some mottled birds? Then cochin pullet I picked out has some white wing tips and some on her feet it’s just not very easy to see.

Yes, any birds from the Mottled hen should be split for mottling, so breeding two of those together should get you approximately 1 in 4 chicks that are mottled and and another 2 in 4 that also carry the gene. If your pullet has some of that white speckling in her feathers, it's possible she carries the gene, though not a guarantee.

So if I breed two silked after that will all baby’s be silked?

Yes, the silkied feather gene is designated h, and a bird that is silkied is h/h. That means that that bird only has h genes to pass on, it has no other gene for that section of the DNA to pass on to its offspring. So if you pair two birds that are silkied, h/h, and thus they both always pass on h to their offspring, then all offspring will also be h/h for silkied feathering. I hope that makes sense!

So they’ll be about 6 and a half months by the time of my local fair and I do have to get rid of some to maintain space as I don’t have much land. I only have runs and three coops.

Ah, yeah, if space is an issue, then all you can do is keep the best that you can for the time being.

 

[Party_Chicken]

Yes, any birds from the Mottled hen should be split for mottling, so breeding two of those together should get you approximately 1 in 4 chicks that are mottled and and another 2 in 4 that also carry the gene. If your pullet has some of that white speckling in her feathers, it's possible she carries the gene, though not a guarantee.

So what I’m battling is weather it’s worth the hassle of trying to breed the mottling instead of focusing on strictly black due to my space issues.

Yes, the silkied feather gene is designated h, and a bird that is silkied is h/h. That means that that bird only has h genes to pass on, it has no other gene for that section of the DNA to pass on to its offspring. So if you pair two birds that are silkied, h/h, and thus they both always pass on h to their offspring, then all offspring will also be h/h for silkied feathering. I hope that makes sense!

It does thank you!

Ah, yeah, if space is an issue, then all you can do is keep the best that you can for the time being.

Yup. I can get a picture of the pair I’d keep if I chose to focus on mottled Cochins instead of black in a bit.