Colorado

[TracyLovesDucks]

I just lost another bird this morning - going into her 3rd winter and I'm pretty sure it was a build-up of internal parasites/worms. I just didn't catch it soon enough but she couldn't keep weight on and had just started to show signs of anemia. SOO - since we're headed into the dark and difficult time of our Colorado year, anyone have suggestions of what I should be doing to better control parasites? I check my birds externally at least once a month, have spread food-grade DE around their inside coop and have just added more apple cider vinegar to their water (while I can before it goes into the galvanized heated waterer soon). What am I missing? I'm pretty sure when I lost my first bird it was probably parasites too (looking back at weight loss and such) and I don't really want to haul up to CSU for a necropsy when my flock hasn't had contact with anyone else and all signs point to parasites. Any suggestions? Worming protocols you follow? Thanks for the help. Now down to 3 birds and feeling depressed since it seems as I've failed my flock when I probably could have done something sooner to save her.

I'm sorry for your loss

I'm not a chicken person, but maybe you could consider doing your own necropsy? Never done it myself, but I've read of others on the forum that do this when they lose a bird. If you suspect parasites, obviously you'll have to be very clean and sanitary... and do it at a great distance away from the other three. Maybe something worth looking into, it's just what came to mind. If you do find the culprit (worm or worm's egg), why not post a picture and someone might be able to tell you exactly what the parasite is.

Or if you are feeling really bad and depressed and opening her up doesn't sound like your thing, maybe it's worth it to take the carcass up to CSU for peace of mind? Or are there any vet schools in Denver?

Otherwise, you seem pretty sure that it is worms. It would be a good measure to deworm the remaining three. Some folks on the forum deworm their flocks preemptively on a regular basis (once or twice a year, something like that) so there is a good deal of information and specific instructions on how to do it. You can type in "deworming" or something like that into the search bar.

Could the chickens be eating metal (screws, nails, drinking from rusty pales)? I see you add ACV to their water; if the waterer is galvanized steel, the vinegar corrodes the zinc coating causing it to leach into the water. Weight loss is also associated with metal toxicity (I think it's called hardware disease)... along with other symptoms. You could look into that too. That would be the good thing about opening her up... they/you might be able to identify exactly what caused the death.

Sorry if I'm telling you things you already know, I just wanted to share my thoughts in case.

 

[Double Kindness]

Did everyone get as much rain as I did?? Talk about unhappy chickens, they certainly told me how unhappy they were being out in the 2nd outer enclosed run where there wasn't enough room for the 24 of them to huddle under their coop with the interior run door closed to let the muscovies settle in and not get ganged up on by the peep peeps.

I wormed a couple/few months ago with wazine and durvet goat dewormer, but was thinking I might want to do it again at the full moon, which from what I understand is the best time to deworm as that's when they breed, so get them and the babies they just hatched? I'm starting a batch of bokashi to do a really good cleaning of all my property and get the compost pit jump started at the same time.

Does anyone want to do some seed swaping?

 

[Pozees]

Greetings all, sorry I have been absent so long. It has been a busy and challenging summer! I hope all are well and hope to be visiting more often. If anyone is looking for chicks I have some Silkies and Ameraucana/EE, and I plan to attend the swap at the Elizabeth Big R this coming Sunday. I will be home Saturday if you would prefer to come see them and pick what you want. Feel free to PM me for directions, or send me a text at 719-492-0688.

BrotherJosh, what I've found simplest for worming is liquid Safeguard for goats, 0.5 cc per large fowl, 0.25 cc per bantam or juvenile, repeat in 7-10 days. Do not consume their eggs until 2 weeks after the second dose.

 

[Ashdoes]

Second and third CSU reports are in, still nothing conclusive on cause of death. But, she was negative for parasites, which is great, after the hassle it was worming the flock.

 

[Pozees]

Ashdoes, sorry to read of your trials, it's very difficult to deal with. It sounds as if they don't know whether it was Marek's yet, and I would think by now they would know that, but the Marek's discussion is useful.

I have read more papers on Marek's than I can even count. One frustrating thing is that it is transmitted via feather dust. I recently read (another keeper wrote this, I've not found a study that says it yet) that it remains in the soil, so you can move to a property where poultry previously lived and pick it up - that was news to me - and a third person said there was some evidence it was transferred from parent to chick through the egg, although that person was not able to support the claim with any evidence. That doesn't mean neither of those things is true, it means I haven't read it yet in a study, and this summer I have not had a whole lot of reading time.

Transmission by feather dust is really all I need to know - it means keeper down the road whose birds are carriers (and in theory, all adult birds are carriers, whether vaccinated or exposed and surviving - live vaccine means the birds shed the virus for life, and that's the only kind available) - anyway, keeper down the road goes into the feed store and brushes his/her carhart against the bag of food that's about to be loaded into my car. Guess what's on all our coats?

Most studies I've read say it is everywhere - there was a study published by the University of ... rats, New Hampshire? Vermont? Someplace in New England, that said if you have an adult flock of poultry, you have Marek's. Culling the entire flock and starting over is generally not thought to be an effective long-term solution - I know the CSU reps recommend it, but unless you subsequently have only vaccinated stock, it isn't going to cure the problem. Even if you can somehow eliminate any possibility of Marek's currently on your property, it's a matter of time before it comes back - and not because you do anything careless, but because if it is transmitted via feather dust, and carried by wild birds, I don't know how you can avoid it. That leaves vaccinating or raising a resistant flock.

The vaccine is available only in 1000 (or more) dose bottles. The entire bottle must be mixed all at once and administered within 2 hours of mixing to chicks in the first 48 hours of life. It *can* be given to older chicks, but the effectiveness decreases as the chick gets older. Each bottle is ~ $20 plus overnight shipping with ice packs, plus you need syringes and needles. The cost of vaccinating chicks when you are only hatching a couple dozen, give or take, at a time, adds about $4 per chick. For a higher priced chick that may not make a lot of difference, but for most of us it does. When the price of a chick goes from $4 to $8 (hatchery versus local breeder who vaccinates), most people buying chicks are not aware of how hatcheries work, and will happily buy the hatchery chicks. It isn't their fault, the information has to be sought, and people have to think to look for it.

The vaccine you and I can buy is commonly referred to as Turkey Marek's - turkeys carry it, and if you add a turkey to your flock, you organically vaccinate the chicks. This is what I have been trying to accomplish the last year, but I've yet to locate a small turkey to add to the flock. Keep in mind, though, this means when chickens and turkeys are kept together, all are carriers. The chickens will not get sick, as they have effectively been vaccinated, but just like a bird vaccinated with a needle, they will shed the virus for life.

Raising resistant flocks means dealing with losing some the first year, losing fewer and fewer each subsequent year as resistant stock is used for breeding and perpetuating the flock.

Lastly, I will share a story I've recently read of a keeper across the country from us. This family has a nice flock of chickens from which they have shipped eggs only to a few people, mainly to try a few different shipping methods and see how they work. Super nice, responsible, caring keepers with only the absolute best interest of their flock at heart. They learned of some hens that needed rescue, and their big and kind hearts could not say no. Luckily they were kept separate from the rest of the flock, save the addition of one of their males. One got sick, then another got sick, so they searched and found a way to test one that had died. It had MG - Mycoplasma Gallisepticum. All the rescue birds do. None of their original flock does. Unlike Marek's, MG is treatable - but like Marek's, survivors are carriers for life. If you talk to the folks at CSU they will tell you it's a fool's errand to cull the flock for MG because it is endemic. If you ask the GA State Vet, he will tell you to either cull your entire flock or keep the flock 100% closed forever. I find this confounding. Cull for one endemic disease and not the other here, not the same in GA - I don't know what that vet's position is on Marek's. The sick rescue hens are not in GA, by the way, but another flock where MG diagnosed was, a few months ago, and they destroyed a flock of something like 120 well-bred Orpingtons. I can't even imagine it.

Each of us has a unique environment in which our chickens live. Bringing in chicks or eggs from a different environment, no matter how carefully, is going to stress them, and create vulnerability where there may have been none before. I've lost birds to impacted crop, internal laying, recently talked to someone who lost one to kidney failure who had taken it to a vet, who did the necropsy for free because *she* wanted to know what killed it, as they had successfully treated similar symptoms a few months earlier. When she found kidney failure, she told the keeper nothing either of them could have done would have saved the bird. That is going to happen. We can put ourselves through torment trying to figure out how to save every single one, or we can follow the counsel of keepers who've had birds 50+ years, who tell us to raise resistant flocks, and stock the medicine cabinet with an axe. Or something in between. We should just remain mindful that sometimes chickens are going to die no matter how well we care for them. They have to live in the environment we have.

 

[corancher]

Very well said Pozees and very good information.

 

[Double Kindness]

I didn't know having a turkey with the chickens helped to builf a resistant flock Pozees, thank you for this great information! I have read a lot too, and I was also confused on the things I read in different studies, it's nice to know I wasn't the only one that was confused and left wondering wtd. Wild birds plauge my property, especially a very brazen duck billed magpie.

I may get a few turkeys in the spring for building up a mareks resistant flock. Atm I just added muscovies last week and have been adjusting my management of the flocks all week.. the ducks only want to eat the meaties food not their food which is what my laying flock gets, 26% & 18%. I do need to go pick up more feed this weekend, so we may try to make it to big r tomorrow. And I have 20 pullets, mostly slw, I would trade for roos, as they are intended for freezer camp. They get handled by me a lot, and some are a bit overly friendly. If anyone is interested please pm me and I will bring them to big r tomorrow. Even if I gave them another 6 weeks, they would still be very small eating chickens, they would make much better layers for someone. So if you have any roos that are 3 months old or older and would like a 3 month old pullet instead, I can certainly help!

Lol, odd someone wanting roos instead of pullets huh? This weekend we decided to go get a solar powered rope type Christmas light to put in with my laying flock. I still can't get the muscovies into their rubbermaid tote coop at night, they lay in front of it. I moved it and tried to put it over them, they did not like that at all! Silly ducks!

 

[Pozees]

I have wild birds here all the time too, and I have no desire to raise my birds in a bubble, so I just have to deal with what's here and work toward resistant flocks. I thought I was at least free of worry about coccidiosis, but the wetter weather this year proved me wrong on that. It's always something.

Are you taking your pullets to the swap at Big R? If so, there is one in Falcon and one in Elizabeth, both start at 11 on Sunday. You should be able to sell them for at least $10 each. I'd trade you for boys but I have only Bantam Cochins and a few 2 month old heritage-bred RIR - they will be great meat birds once they reach size, but they won't be there for probably another couple of months, they are very slow growing. I'm sure someone will be glad to take them off your hands Pullets are hard to find this time of year.

 

[Ashdoes]

I'm still not sure it's mareks that killed our birds, since I have no others acting ill, after moving the little ones back to their baby stall.
It is stressful, trying to decide what I will do with our breeding ideas...maybe I'll only do chicks and eggs, and not sell any older pullets or any of the Roos. Which is a little sad, considering the alternative to that, is to kill them. I feel like, even though it's widespread, it still stigmatizes our flock now. It'll be a "Mareks Flock" and that makes me sad. There are some people here on BYC that have very strong opinions about it, and reading those posts is a discouraging.
We'll be getting the final report on Monday, and I'm very anxious for it. Till then, after three years of being in our "new house", we're finally painting! So, two weeks of Fall Break and leave from work will be full of painting, and Halloween costume making. Im very excited to be covering these horrible beige walls...no offense to people that like beige

 

[Pozees]

LOL I know what you mean, our walls are still beige too, one of these days we'll paint them

There are many well-meaning folks here who consider any flock that's ever had any infection or infestation as voodoo. They may have been lucky so far - or they may not even know their birds are carriers, or have had infections they've been able to overcome. If judges who are longtime poultry keepers tell me it's just a fact of keeping poultry, I'm inclined to believe them. When a chick is vaccinated, whether by needle or exposure, it is infected and overcomes the infection, the result being the immune system recognizes that family of virus. The result is also that the bird is a carrier. You and I will never detect the signs of infection as the chick's immune system works to overcome it. That's why I say they may not even know their birds are carriers.

There are folks who bring their poultry all over their region to shows - all manner of bacteria and viruses are there. All of the birds at these shows are exposed to everything under the sun. Perhaps the same people who have strong anti-Marek's positions would never buy from someone who shows, but the vast majority of people trying to breed to standard seek birds from flocks judged to have met it, or at least approached it, by a judge who has had his or her hands on one or more of the birds used for breeding. If all I wanted was a backyard flock for eggs and meat, I would still want birds with natural resistance to the things present in our environment.

I understand your sadness at feeling stigmatized, and you are right, there are people who have very strong opinions who don't hesitate to express them - repeatedly and loudly. The volume of a voice does not determine its truth.

In the end, each of us must do what we feel is best for our flocks and for ourselves. Judging another keeper for doing something different serves no purpose, and prevents us from keeping open minds and learning from what others do. I adjust what I do in flock care continuously. Seasons, unseasonal weather, changes in housing and/or run surfaces, heck even just cleaning the coop, can create stress and cause birds to respond negatively. If I see a bird looking not as good as I think it should, I try any number of things, from giving vitamins, adding Red Cell to the wet food, spraying everyone with a little Oxine mist, giving extra treats, some yogurt, whatever seems like the thing to do at the time. Sometimes I even think it works, when it's more likely that the chicken simply overcame the challenge regardless of what I did