Copper Deficiency: Fishtail?

[HensAndFriends]

Hey again!
So, my goats have Manna Pro Goat Mineral available in two locations in their enclosure 24/7….. Is this tail exhibiting fishtail?

His coat is a bit rougher than my other goats’, which he has had ever since I got him. Also, whenever I pet him my hand has hairs on it. Finally, he and my other goats had some lice (which I treated) but they are clear now.

Btw, I recently dewormed all my goats with Moxidectin. Should I give some copper to boost their deworming?

Could this be copper deficiency (my gut feeling) or lice recovery?

I really don’t want to Overdose my goats on copper! But I think it will not only help with the deworming, but help my goat’s coat.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Welcome to BYC!

It's been a while since I kept goaties.. but I do remember a couple very good website resources (regardless of breed) in case they're helpful for you also..

https://fiascofarm.com/goats/

https://tennesseemeatgoats.com/

Hopefully you will get some more feedback from experienced and current goat keepers right here.. but there is a sister site to this one for herd animals that may also be helpful/useful..

https://www.backyardherds.com/

In poultry (seasonal shedding).. I know the feather condition doesn't change until it falls out and new ones come in, even if the condition (parasitic or nutritional) was corrected. Now skin condition, if it was effected (by parasites) does improve rapidly. And human hair (constant shedding/growth).. well it's also dead and basically won't improve the old stuff but only the new growth. My dogs, some are more smooth coated and others are more course, genetically speaking (even same breed), just for discussion and consideration purposes.

Just as a means of looking at clues, aside from the minerals you have available.. what is his standard feed routine including treats, what is his breed, and is he wethered or in tact? I'm not sure if the last question is fully relevant, but seems like it could be.

One interesting article about the shedding process..

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...ing-in-goats/49915A9847CDD39DFD998FA885167475

 

[HensAndFriends]

Welcome to BYC!

It's been a while since I kept goaties.. but I do remember a couple very good website resources (regardless of breed) in case they're helpful for you also..

https://fiascofarm.com/goats/

https://tennesseemeatgoats.com/

Hopefully you will get some more feedback from experienced and current goat keepers right here.. but there is a sister site to this one for herd animals that may also be helpful/useful..

https://www.backyardherds.com/

In poultry (seasonal shedding).. I know the feather condition doesn't change until it falls out and new ones come in, even if the condition (parasitic or nutritional) was corrected. Now skin condition, if it was effected (by parasites) does improve rapidly. And human hair (constant shedding/growth).. well it's also dead and basically won't improve the old stuff but only the new growth. My dogs, some are more smooth coated and others are more course, genetically speaking (even same breed), just for discussion and consideration purposes.

Just as a means of looking at clues, aside from the minerals you have available.. what is his standard feed routine including treats, what is his breed, and is he wethered or in tact? I'm not sure if the last question is fully relevant, but seems like it could be.

One interesting article about the shedding process..

https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...ing-in-goats/49915A9847CDD39DFD998FA885167475

Thanks for replying, and the info!!
I’ll check out the websites

The goat in question:
12 week old ND almost finished being banded (his sacs have dried up and are hard as rocks) Also, he is almost weaned (gets only one 2 oz bottle in the AM)

Feeding:
Fed in the AM one handful (literally) of Purina Goat Grower with Manna Pro Goat Mineral sprinkled on top, in a communal trough with the other two goats (females: 16 weeks and 6 weeks)

Treats:
Manna Pro Probiotic w/ Ammonium Chloride

Is there a high chance of creating copper toxicity if I give my goats a Goat Kid Copper Bolus? The breeders never gave them it before…. I’d really like to give them the copper.

 

[HensAndFriends]

@EggSighted4Life
So the Manna Pro Mineral only has a max of 1,600 ppm….. I am going to switch to Purina Goat Mineral which has a minimum of 2,500ppm.

Should I give a copper bolus to help refuel the deficient copper levels in my goats (and maybe help them with their deworming and worms)? Even though I’ll switch to a higher copper ppm?

Could that cause toxicity, giving a bolus and switching to a higher copper mineral?

Would it be better to just give the higher copper mineral, not the bolus?

 

[lomine]

I would not bolus unless you are absolutely sure he needs it, especially if he is just a kid. If the breeder never gave it, it's probably not something you need to worry about in your area. I'd ask a local goat vet or other goat keepers what they know about the copper levels in your soil. If you are really worried, get him blood tested to check his levels.

"Fish tail" is not a reliable sign of copper deficiency. Some of mine have it and I know their copper levels are fine.

Hair regrowth after lice can take a while. I had one buck who for some reason got hit by lice way worse than the rest of the herd. Vet said it's common for that to happen with light colored goats. It took him a long time to regrow a nice coat.

In regard to minerals, you should offer them loose minerals free choice. I put mine in a bucket hung from a chain (they can't knock it over that way, and I can adjust the height during kidding season). You'll also want to make sure they actually eat it. I tried one brand and they refused to eat it. I don't remember the name, but it was in a red bag. If I were in your shoes, I would put out a bucket for everyone right away and wait a few months to see how the kid does.

 

[RiverOtter]

I always bolus, because they will not eat enough mineral to keep their levels high enough. They should have loose mineral available free choice and not mixed with their feed.

The reason for this is that the main mineral is salt. If they are forced to eat it, they'll overdose on salt LONG before they get too much of anything else.

Copper toxicity is talked up a LOT on the internet, because it's a Man-Bites-Dog kinda thing. I have never seen it, or personally known someone who'd seen it, in real life. It's always someone's friend's boyfriend's cousin.
I HAVE personally seen and laid hands on copper-deficient goats, including goat kids that died of in-utero copper deficiency. Through most of the USA, it is very, very safe to assume that your local forage/hay doesn't have enough copper, and unless you are free-feeding a very high end $$$ show-goat ration that has added copper, they're not getting enough in their grain either. Goat mineral has enough to keep a healthy goat who has a bolus or a good-copper-level diet from dropping, but doesn't have enough to significantly raise levels on it's own.

 

[lomine]

I always bolus, because they will not eat enough mineral to keep their levels high enough. They should have loose mineral available free choice and not mixed with their feed.

The reason for this is that the main mineral is salt. If they are forced to eat it, they'll overdose on salt LONG before they get too much of anything else.

Copper toxicity is talked up a LOT on the internet, because it's a Man-Bites-Dog kinda thing. I have never seen it, or personally known someone who'd seen it, in real life. It's always someone's friend's boyfriend's cousin.
I HAVE personally seen and laid hands on copper-deficient goats, including goat kids that died of in-utero copper deficiency. Through most of the USA, it is very, very safe to assume that your local forage/hay doesn't have enough copper, and unless you are free-feeding a very high end $$$ show-goat ration that has added copper, they're not getting enough in their grain either. Goat mineral has enough to keep a healthy goat who has a bolus or a good-copper-level diet from dropping, but doesn't have enough to significantly raise levels on it's own.

That may all be true for you, but copper toxicity is a real thing. I asked my vet (a very experienced vet with tons of knowledge about goats, seriously she is well known throughout the state) about giving my herd copper bolus. She was at my place doing their annual blood test and I had noticed what looked like fish tails on some of the does. She told me straight up that I could kill them. She's the one that told me fish tail was not a reliable symptom. She told me that with the copper levels in our soil and free choice mineral with copper, they get what they need. I only feed a locally grown alfalfa and a mix of grains to does in milk/pregnant.

She did tell me that if I was concerned, I could get them all blood tested. Though she didn't recommend it as they weren't showing any systems on deficiency. That was years ago, and I haven't seen any symptoms and or major issues related to a deficiency.

In all the groups and forums I've looked through, I always see people recommending copper bolus without any talk of the possible dangers. Is it more likely there isn't enough cooper in the soil? Yea probably. Is it really worth it to chance killing a goat instead of doing a little extra and finding out about the keeper's local area? I don't think so. Asking a local vet/goat keeper or getting a blood test is a simple thing.

 

[RiverOtter]

@Iomine, you live in copper mine country. That's a very, very unique thing.

Copper deficiency kills a LOT of goats. Did you know that low copper levels in the mother through pregnancy will kill the goat kids? Not right away, they die long, agonizing deaths at a few months old. The mother will die during the next pregnancy when the next kid robs her body (again) of every last bit of copper, unless she's been treated. It's called "In utero copper deficiency", look it up.

When we talk about dangers to goats, yes, we talk about the most common ones. We don't give advice based on rare or unique circumstances. And location matters. Like, on this forum, even though we have members based all over the world, MOST of us are in the US, so if you ask about predators, the advice given to you will be based on canids. even though a major predator of domestic goats is Lions in over 20 countries. But things like lions and unusually high copper levels in the soil tend to be dangers that people in those areas are very aware of. For example, I'm sure that most of the copper related deaths that a vet in Peyton, CO would have seen would be sheep related, and it would be known to not raise sheep around there, as sheep are killed at 1/4 of the amount of copper that a goat needs just to be healthy, and if even one goat has died because copper levels in the soil are high enough that a bolus tips them over the edge, sheep in that area must drop like flies.

 

[RiverOtter]

BTW, I hope that didn't come off as stalkerish - I have a friend that lives near there and one of the borders of her property is actually an old, collapsed mine shaft and people trespass on it because history, which drives her crazy because insurance, so I know more than I should about mines in Colorado.

 

[cassie]

Thanks for replying, and the info!!
I’ll check out the websites

The goat in question:
12 week old ND almost finished being banded (his sacs have dried up and are hard as rocks) Also, he is almost weaned (gets only one 2 oz bottle in the AM)

Feeding:
Fed in the AM one handful (literally) of Purina Goat Grower with Manna Pro Goat Mineral sprinkled on top, in a communal trough with the other two goats (females: 16 weeks and 6 weeks)

Treats:
Manna Pro Probiotic w/ Ammonium Chloride

Is there a high chance of creating copper toxicity if I give my goats a Goat Kid Copper Bolus? The breeders never gave them it before…. I’d really like to give them the copper.

First of all, copper deficiency is not nearly as common in goats as breeders think it is. Secondly if you give copper to a goat that doesn't need it you can easily kill it. In all the years I had goats I never dosed them with copper.