Cornish Thread

[spangledcornish]

there are many times that the male will have lacing in them early on and when they go through the last molt to their mature feathering it will go away. I have been told these are good males to mark for your breeding program (provided they carry the type) for lacing their daughters. We will frequently have std males with lacing on them in this stage.

 

[Cedarknob]

Still say it's a male-- your picture prompted me to give a good look over my dark cornish chicks last night when I got home. I've got one that I've been thinking is a male-- and he looks nearly identical to the ones you have. My females- are obvious to me at this stage of the game compared to him.

BTW: I suppose I'll be selling or butchering when the time comes- that one lonely male Dark chick-- have no use for him.

That would be one of your crossbred birds?

That didn't read right. LOL I know you had or have one DC cockerel. Is it him, or a crossbred you are trying to sell?

 

[SD_Paulo]

CEDARKNOB~

Here is what one of the members from the Cornish group replied to me about your "painted" bird.

"""I think it is caused by leaky dominant white. The chicks have these spots as day
olds and they remain for life as you suggested. The gene now has common name and
these spotted chicks are called Paint. The gene has been identified in Silkies,
La Fleche, Phoenix, Cochins, White Sumatras, Leghorns, and possibly Cornish? The
Silkies with this gene have already been shown in several locations under this
new name.

You can literally select the chicks over many generations and continue to pick
out the ones with the most black spotting and you will eventually end up with a
bird that has a white base and large blobs of black throughout. Sometimes the
white is tinged with a fawn cast because Dun is starting to creep through the
white. Dun and Smoky are the alleles of Dominmant White.

To eliminate the spotting select against it and if you like it select for it.""""

 

[SD_Paulo]

there are many times that the male will have lacing in them early on and when they go through the last molt to their mature feathering it will go away. I have been told these are good males to mark for your breeding program (provided they carry the type) for lacing their daughters. We will frequently have std males with lacing on them in this stage.

Adam,

I was told also that the female laced cocks might carry the spangled gene? Or are good to put over spangled hens?

Does that sound right?

 

[kfacres]

young, newly hatched bird.. I think hatched in Feb.. I assume he's sired by the big DC cockerel. I think I got lucky and got everything else female.

That would be one of your crossbred birds?

That didn't read right. LOL I know you had or have one DC cockerel. Is it him, or a crossbred you are trying to sell?

 

[Cedarknob]

CEDARKNOB~

Here is what one of the members from the Cornish group replied to me about your "painted" bird.

"""I think it is caused by leaky dominant white. The chicks have these spots as day
olds and they remain for life as you suggested. The gene now has common name and
these spotted chicks are called Paint. The gene has been identified in Silkies,
La Fleche, Phoenix, Cochins, White Sumatras, Leghorns, and possibly Cornish? The
Silkies with this gene have already been shown in several locations under this
new name.

You can literally select the chicks over many generations and continue to pick
out the ones with the most black spotting and you will eventually end up with a
bird that has a white base and large blobs of black throughout. Sometimes the
white is tinged with a fawn cast because Dun is starting to creep through the
white. Dun and Smoky are the alleles of Dominmant White.

To eliminate the spotting select against it and if you like it select for it.""""

Thank you, that is very interesting, and is pretty much as I thought, though I do still question if "paint" can ever breed true. I took the three DC out of my WC pen. I want to determine if it was the white pullets, dark hen/pullets, or both throwing black and black splotched chicks. It will be awhile before my chicks are old enough to know for certain that the chicks are not going to feather with red bleed, but nothing but splotches of black shows on any of their feathers now. The Cornish chicks with black splotches have all hatched as silvery white with black splotches. All those hatched yellowish or grey have no black showing. That makes me think my cock might be both recessive and dominant white, the occasional solid black chick a clue he must he have only one copy of dominant white.

Off topic for Cornish, but related to the color topic.......................... My crossbred chicks from the Cornish Rocks only have one copy of dominant white, though some should also carry a copy of recessive white. They are sired by a blue Ameraucana carrying recessive white, and a gold duckwing Ameraucana also carrying recessive white. [They were my largest Ameraucanas, actually over the standard weight, and were two birds I continued to keep only for this crossbreeding project, from some splits with the blue variety that I made trying to increase size in my White Ameraucanas. Two cockerels grew out quite a bit larger than the parent lines of either variety, I have since culled them. Interestingly, and also disappointingly, the White Ameraucanas hatched from the splits I made all went back to the smallish size of my white line.] The chicks from those two crossed to the CX hatch yellow, and only a very few show a muted dark spot bleeding through the down.

As an after-thought, I wonder if the splash gene [Bl/Bl] is somehow working under dominate white to help create "paint". If so, I would think they should get blue paints also. I know Bl/bl can sometimes break down enough that a blue bird will sport several black feathers, they usually get culled in blue varieties.

 

[SD_Paulo]

What was color was the Cock in that mix color pen?

I ask because I was wondering if any one knew what you are likely to get if you put a White under a Dark?

 

[Cedarknob]

What was color was the Cock in that mix color pen?
I ask because I was wondering if any one knew what you are likely to get if you put a White under a Dark?

White cock, over three whites and three darks. I've discovered there is no telling what you might get from that cross. LOL I was hoping my cock was a dark with two copies of recessive white, which would have given me DCs, but carrying one copy for white. I figured I could very well get something else, but figured bad lacing would be the worst thing. LOL I was too inexperienced to know that many are using dominant white in the WCs, or to have any idea at all what all is hidden under either type of white, and really had not thought it out. I remember reading and seeing pictures of solid blues and blacks coming from Big Medicine's cross of a blue laced red bird over recessive white Cornish of Louis Stait breeding, so should have known some WCs are solid colored under the white, but really had not thought about the chance of getting a solid color at all.


I can't argue with the success of those crossing jubilee or white laced red to white Cornish have had. I do, however, prefer recessive white coupled with silver and excluding the dominant white that those two varieties add. I'm nearly positive my white pullets have no dominant white in them, and that one or more does carry silver. Having already hatched a good number of white over white Cornish, I will be moving a DC cockerel to their pen today.

 

[Gresh]

Hello, everyone!

I have been following this thread and have been impressed by many of the birds seen here. However, after reading an article by the SPPA (an organization I greatly respect), I am wondering if some of these Cornish are really far from the original type of the Cornish breed. I post here the article (written by E.S. Traverse), copied from Feathersite. Please share your thoughts as experienced Cornish breeders.

"Birds of a Feather"
Indian Games vs. Cornish

by E. S. Traverse
with permission from
SPPA Bulletin, 1998, 3(4):3-4​

Breeders have done a good job of explaining and maintaining the distinction between the Old English Game and the Modern Game. While the latter was bred down from the former, no one -- not even the most inexperienced of Poultry enthusiasts ever confuses one for the other. Much the same holds true of Shamos, Malays and so forth. Mere mention of a particular breed name
automatically brings to the mind's eye a clear and universal image of that breed. That is as it should be. In part, and in layman's terms, it's what "breed" is all about.
The same does not hold true when speaking of Indian Games -- or, er -- I mean Cornish. I acquired the foundation of my Indian Games from friends in Maine that called them Cornish (hello folks!). We were speaking of the same bird, and we knew it. If "Indian Game" is a misnomer (and it is, albeit that is what they are called in the United Kingdom), then so is the name "Cornish."
Turning to the older poultry books, one finds that the word "Cornish" designated the double-laced color pattern of brown over black and not the birds themselves, as in "The Indian Games are represented by two varieties, the Cornish and the White" (from Farm Poultry by L.H. Bailey, the Macmillan Company, 1901). A much more accurate name for them would have been the ANGLO-ASEEL.
When speaking of either "Indian Games" or "Cornish" in terms of the breed/variety as a whole, things are not as cut and dried. The original -- and therefore "true" Indian Game -- that is, "The Game of India" -- is the Aseel (also spelled Asil in older poultry books). Brought to England, principally around Cornwall, and bred to Old English Games and Malays, it gave rise to the "Indian Games" intended to be the focus of this article.
Long held in high regard for the quality and quantity of their flesh, and justly so, the older poultry books, without exception, classify Indian Games as general purpose fowl, listing them in the chapter with Plymouth Rocks, Javas and Dorkings.
They are an extremely hardy breed, quite active and able to fend for themselves through most of the year and the healthier for it. They are able fliers and roost in trees if kept on free range. Hens are fairly decent layers, producing fifteen to eighteen dozen large, firm-shelled brown eggs per year. The hens set, and make attentive mothers. The eggs hatch well, and chicks are lively right from the start.
Indian Games are in fact "more than a meat bird." They are a dual-purpose breed, well suited to the homestead or farm holding and especially adaptable to the free range system. Unfortunately, they are becoming increasingly rare.
The modern, exhibition type "Cornish," regardless of plumage color, is vastly different physically from the Indian Game of old. The Cornish bears no resemblance at all to its Anglican or Malaysian ancestors, but looks like a much exaggerated caricature of the Aseel. Modern Cornish, when compared to the Indian Game (or any Game, for that matter) is a clumsy bird if kept in confinement, and only slightly more graceful if allowed free range. Turning them loose is ill advised. Like the Dodo and Ostrich they cannot fly.
Hens are poor layers. Many modern strains of Cornish cannot mate naturally. Subsequent generations of champion stock are produced by artificial means. Poultry being maintained via artificial insemination brings up at least two relevant points. First, without man's intervention, there never would have been a need for AI as it applies in this instance. Second, without man's continued interference through AI, extinction of type would be an obvious certainty.
Given the antecedent breeds responsible for its creation (Aseel, Old English and Malay Game), the Indian Game could not have evolved naturally into anything else. The modern, exhibition Cornish evolved into its present form for three reasons: 1) Man's recognition of slight variation that exists within the genotype of any given race, 2) Man's exploitation of this variation, and 3) Man's affinity to maintain exaggerated features. What started as a defect was developed into a desired trait, bred for and retained each generation until the trait became fixed. Overly simplified, perhaps, but accurately stated.
Enthusiasts considering Indian Games or Cornish should first ask themselves what they are looking for in a bird. One bird will not (can not) fill the niche of the other because, after all, we are really talking about two different breeds.
If nothing else, I hope these brief scratchings will make fanciers aware that two types exist, and that the older, original utility type is in danger of extinction.

Your thoughts are appreciated!

God bless,
~Gresh~

 

[galanie]

What I get from that article is that they were developed from Aseel or Asil and now look nothing like them. So while they don't look like Asil any longer, they do look like the Cornish that I've seen pictures of from the early 1900's.