Cornish Thread

[CanadianBuckeye]

I like the birds. BESIDES eggs and meat,they are friends. Everyone thinks I'm crazy,including the shrinks.lol

Clearly the shrinks have no chickens.

 

[varidgerunner]

Talking to me?? Absolutely and emphatically YES!!

Proof that testosterone production, prey drive, aggression, and dominance are all different things that all might look alike from the outside. While I agree that a lot of dopey low fertility birds are out there that have no place in the gene pool, I don't believe that a shin flogger is necessarily any more fertile because of it. I view it in fowl as a sign of a neurotic defect and when bred to there is no telling how it might manifest. Today's shin flogger might beget tomorrow's egg pecker.

 

[OrganicFarmWife]

Proof that testosterone production, prey drive, aggression, and dominance are all different things that all might look alike from the outside. While I agree that a lot of dopey low fertility birds are out there that have no place in the gene pool, I don't believe that a shin flogger is necessarily any more fertile because of it. I view it in fowl as a sign of a neurotic defect and when bred to there is no telling how it might manifest. Today's shin flogger might beget tomorrow's egg pecker.

I disagree. It is about genetics, not hormones. The male line is the one that matters only because, generally females are breeders (unless obvious defect). But the theory would follow you will get stronger, healthier females from a strong healthy male, strong is generally connected to testosterone. The though is if you start downplaying the aggressive traits, you take away from other traits as well.

 

[varidgerunner]

I disagree. It is about genetics, not hormones. The male line is the one that matters only because, generally females are breeders (unless obvious defect). But the theory would follow you will get stronger, healthier females from a strong healthy male, strong is generally connected to testosterone. The though is if you start downplaying the aggressive traits, you take away from other traits as well.

Yes, my point exactly, genetics, not hormones. Fertility is genetic, crazy shin flogging is genetic, a healthy shin flogger and a healthy fertile rooster will both have high levels of testosterone because they are healthy males. Willingness to attack their own handlers is in no way a measure of fertility. I have birds that are obviously extremely dominant, virile, fertile with plenty of excess testosterone that will allow a kid to put dress up clothes on them and push them around in a doll carriage. You don't have to tolerate manifestations of a mental defect to have fertile, masculine birds.

 

[OrganicFarmWife]

Testosterone, is linked to aggressiveness, virility, strength. You take away the aggressive, it follows to reason you will also take away from the others. In human males, the ones with more testosterone, are the more attractive. However they are also generally the more difficult to live with. It is the same in animals. This can be trained out, with as long as they have enough of an outlet (marines) But a healthy rooster, with nothing more then a caged area will prove to be aggressive.

 

[varidgerunner]

I could take you to a dozen healthy roosters with nothing more than a caged area, some five or six years old, still fertile no human aggression whatsoever. If aggression is purely linked to testosterone, how come my hens will tear each other limb from limb if given the chance? They should have less testosterone than the males, (although probably more than some) Human aggression and cock aggression have no relation to each other. Human aggression is a fault, in most circles.One that there is absolutely no good reason to deal with.

 

[OrganicFarmWife]

I could take you to a dozen healthy roosters with nothing more than a caged area, some five or six years old, still fertile no human aggression whatsoever. If aggression is purely linked to testosterone, how come my hens will tear each other limb from limb if given the chance? They should have less testosterone than the males, (although probably more than some) Human aggression and cock aggression have no relation to each other. Human aggression is a fault, in most circles.One that there is absolutely no good reason to deal with.

I mearly trying to use a more relatable example. Most agree increased testosterone equals higher aggression, this is true across the board. If we cannot even agree on that point, the debate is useless.

 

[OrganicFarmWife]

The female dogs were trained to fight. But head to head with a larger equally trained male, the female would probably loose. This is testosterone

 

[varidgerunner]

Aggression has many facets. A territorial male aggressive cock bird that doesn't flog people has the same potential for testosterone production as a shin flogger. (The shin floggers usually prove to leave a territorial dispute when the chips are down, by the way).

A female pit bull might be equally as aggressive as a male that is her same size, if the male is bigger, then that is sexual dimorphism, and not solely testosterone at play. A male pit bull, a male german shepherd and a male bluetick hound have the same testosterone and the same ability to sire pups. One of them is more likely to bite you if you are another dog, one is more likely to bite you if you are a bear, one is more likely to bite you so it can play with it's rubber ball. All of these have come about through selective breeding, and random human aggression has been heavily culled for in most of the better individual lines.

 

[QueenMisha]

I gotta say I'm with varidgerunner on this argument. You can see plenty of virility and vigor in a bird who's sweet as Cochin, and you can get bird-aggression and predator-aggression in them too without needing human aggression. Studying gamefowl you see this especially, you've got games that are dead game and will kill another cockbird as soon as look at it, but sit pretty in a person's arms for hours on end. I should know, I got one, he's an ex cocking bird and he's gotta live in his own pen because he'll kill my other roosters if I let him (or more likely get killed by them when it comes to the Ga Noi...). And every human-aggressive bird I've had was a sissy in the flock, especially my old thai mutt Crowley... he was smart enough to wait until my back was turned to get me, but one of the bigger boys so much as looked at him and he was GONE!

shin flogger

Also, that's the best name for a bad roo I've seen in a while. Even better than "manfighter!" Permission to steal that phrase?

Edited to add clarity.