Cream Legbar cross chicks (Maran x CL, Barred Rock x CL), colouring genetics and sexing

[connieconnie]

So I've recently been sucked into the black hole of what is chicken colouring genetics. And after days of research... I'm still a bit confused
I've discovered how wonderfully complex and interesting this area is! And would like some advice, thoughts, opinions or maybe some links to information.

I have a small backyard flock here in the UK, with a Cream Legbar cockerel (CL) and a collection of unrelated hens of different breeds (Blue copper Maran (M), Black copper Maran (M), Silver Grey Dorking (SGD), Barred Plymouth Rock (BPR) and Crested Cream Legbar (CL)). On March 30th 2021 (a couple of days ago), I hatched 3 Purebred Cream Legbars (CLxCL), 3 Copper Maran cross Cream Legbars (MxCL) and 2 Barred Plymouth Rock cross Cream Legbars (BPRxCL)

I was surprised to get a yellow chick with feathered legs and a chick with no feathered legs from my MxCL!
I was wondering:

1. what these chicks feather colouring will be in the future?
2. if there is any sex identification that can be done from hatch?
3. and why a Maran cross chick can not have feathered legs?

So here are the Chicks description with photos:

Cream Legbar Cockerel crossed with Cream Legbar Hen (CLxCL):

• Chick 1 (Honey) CLxCL - Yellow, chipmunk pattern, yellow legs, no yellow headspot - female?

• Chick 2 (Popcorn) CLxCL - Yellow, Yellow legs, white headspot, fleck of brown on forehead, very light gingery chipmunk pattern - male?

• Chick 3 (Butter) CLxCL - Yellow, Yellow legs, white scattered headspot, very light gingery chipmunk pattern - male?

Cream Legbar Cockerel crossed with either Blue or Black copper Maran Hen (CLxM):

• Chick 4 (Pita) CLxM - Yellow, Yellow feathered legs, light yellow underbelly with slightly more gingery top, no headspot

• Chick 5 (Momo) CLxM - Black, white chest, Large white headspot, feathered legs, Yellow legs

• Chick 6 (Katsu) CLxM - Black, white chest, scattered white headspot with some ginger marks within, no feathering on legs

Cream Legbar Cockerel crossed with Barred Plymouth Rock Hen (CLxBPR):

• Chick 7 (Tamari) CLxBPR - Black, black chest, scattered white headspot, white mark on under left eyelid

• Chick 8 (Seaseme) CLxBPR - Black, Black chest, smallest chick, defined white headspot in 'J' shape

(my other two chicks, just if you are interested - not CL cross) Purebred Maran chicks (MxM):

• Chick 9 (Bamboo) MxM - Light grey, white chest and white markings

• Chick 10 (Ginger) MxM - Dark grey, white chest and white markings

Please let me know if from these chicks you can decipher their sex or genetics, including if you can work out any indices of the genetics of the parents (Cockerel or Hens). Thank you so much for your help!

I was wondering if because I got a yellow, non-barred chick from CLxM, then my Cockerel (Noodle) only has one Barring gene? As this chick has no barring, is it more likely to be male?

will post photos of the parents

 

[NatJ]

This makes sense for the barring! They'll all be barred, I should further qualify my question, will they be auto-sexing? I'm just now learning about genetics, so if barring is linked to auto-sexing, that's new info! Thanks in advance!

Yes, autosexing requires barring.

It is based on males having two Z chromosomes (so they can have 2 copies of the barring gene) and females have sex chromsomes ZW (so they can only have 1 copy of the barring gene, on their one Z chromsome.)

A chicken with two copies of the barring gene will show more white (in the barring as they grow, and also in the head spot when they are babies, and sometimes also lighter colored legs.) A chicken with one copy of the barring gene will show less white (in the barring as they grow, but also in the head spot.)

Barred Rocks and Cuckoo Marans can be autosexing: males have bigger headspots, lighter-colored legs, and more white in the barring as they grow. They can be easier or harder to sex, depending on whether the breeder was selecting for more distinction between males and females.

The best-known autosexing breeds (like Cream Legbars) have barring on wild-type background color, rather than black. For them, the females (one barring gene) mostly lack headspots. The males (two barring genes) have headspots, and the down color on the rest of their bodies is generally lighter in color as well.

I'm currently incubating Maran×Barred Rock sire with Cream Legbar dam eggs. The sex-link gene should pass to them, correct? I'm really excited to see what we get! It'll be very interesting to see this mix!

What kind of Marans is a parent of the rooster? If it was a Cuckoo Marans, then the rooster is pure for the barring gene. That would mean all chicks are pure for the barring gene, and you may be able to sex them by recognizing which ones have two barring genes (male) and which have one barring gene (female).

But if the father has a different kind of Marans, with no barring, then the father will have only one barring gene. He will give the barring gene to half his chicks, and no barring to the other half. The Cream Legbar mother will give barring to her sons, and a W chromosome to her daughters (makes them female, does not have barring.)

That would give:
--males with two copies of the barring gene (half of males, inherited barring from both parents)
--males with one copy of the barring gene (other half of males, inherited barring just from their mother)
--females with one copy of the barring gene (half of females, inherited barring just from their father)
--females with no barring gene (other half of females, did not inherit barring from their father.)

From this mix, you might be able to identify the chicks with two copies of the barring gene (must be males) and/or the ones with no barring (must be females). But the ones with just one barring gene could be male or female.

 

[MommaBison]

Yes, autosexing requires barring.

It is based on males having two Z chromosomes (so they can have 2 copies of the barring gene) and females have sex chromsomes ZW (so they can only have 1 copy of the barring gene, on their one Z chromsome.)

A chicken with two copies of the barring gene will show more white (in the barring as they grow, and also in the head spot when they are babies, and sometimes also lighter colored legs.) A chicken with one copy of the barring gene will show less white (in the barring as they grow, but also in the head spot.)

Barred Rocks and Cuckoo Marans can be autosexing: males have bigger headspots, lighter-colored legs, and more white in the barring as they grow. They can be easier or harder to sex, depending on whether the breeder was selecting for more distinction between males and females.

The best-known autosexing breeds (like Cream Legbars) have barring on wild-type background color, rather than black. For them, the females (one barring gene) mostly lack headspots. The males (two barring genes) have headspots, and the down color on the rest of their bodies is generally lighter in color as well.


What kind of Marans is a parent of the rooster? If it was a Cuckoo Marans, then the rooster is pure for the barring gene. That would mean all chicks are pure for the barring gene, and you may be able to sex them by recognizing which ones have two barring genes (male) and which have one barring gene (female).

But if the father has a different kind of Marans, with no barring, then the father will have only one barring gene. He will give the barring gene to half his chicks, and no barring to the other half. The Cream Legbar mother will give barring to her sons, and a W chromosome to her daughters (makes them female, does not have barring.)

That would give:
--males with two copies of the barring gene (half of males, inherited barring from both parents)
--males with one copy of the barring gene (other half of males, inherited barring just from their mother)
--females with one copy of the barring gene (half of females, inherited barring just from their father)
--females with no barring gene (other half of females, did not inherit barring from their father.)

From this mix, you might be able to identify the chicks with two copies of the barring gene (must be males) and/or the ones with no barring (must be females). But the ones with just one barring gene could be male or female.

Wow this is a lot of helpful info, thank you! The rooster is Black Copper Maran father × Barred Rock mother

 

[MommaBison]

I'm not sure it will work, because you already have one cross as the sire. He doesn't have 2 barring genes himself, he has 1. Therefore half his offspring, regardless of sex, will get a barring gene, because in birds the males are the homomorphic(WW) sex. The legbar will pass her barring to all her sons, because barring is not on the female designated gene, it is only on the W gene, hence why it is sexlinked. The sire can still pass barring to his daughters since he carries one, and he might not pass it evenly. Hope this explanation helps!

Yes! This makes sense! I didn't realize that it was the barring gene that caused the dot. Very interesting! Thank you.

 

[NatJ]

Wow this is a lot of helpful info, thank you! The rooster is Black Copper Maran father × Barred Rock mother

In that case, the rooster only has one barring gene, so he will give it to some chicks and not others. That would be this situation, with chicks in four categories:

--males with two copies of the barring gene (half of males, inherited barring from both parents)
--males with one copy of the barring gene (other half of males, inherited barring just from their mother)
--females with one copy of the barring gene (half of females, inherited barring just from their father)
--females with no barring gene (other half of females, did not inherit barring from their father.)

From this mix, you might be able to identify the chicks with two copies of the barring gene (must be males) and/or the ones with no barring (must be females). But the ones with just one barring gene could be male or female.

 

[MommaBison]

In that case, the rooster only has one barring gene, so he will give it to some chicks and not others. That would be this situation, with chicks in four categories:

Thank you! This is great education, I appreciate the time you took to answer my questions!

 

[CherieNZ]

Beautiful collection of chickens. Would love to see any updated pics showing how the crossed chicks turned out?

 

[Bantambird]

I'm currently incubating Maran×Barred Rock sire with Cream Legbar dam eggs. The sex-link gene should pass to them, correct? I'm really excited to see what we get! It'll be very interesting to see this mix!

I'm not sure it will work, because you already have one cross as the sire. He doesn't have 2 barring genes himself, he has 1. Therefore half his offspring, regardless of sex, will get a barring gene, because in birds the males are the homomorphic(WW) sex. The legbar will pass her barring to all her sons, because barring is not on the female designated gene, it is only on the W gene, hence why it is sexlinked. The sire can still pass barring to his daughters since he carries one, and he might not pass it evenly. Hope this explanation helps!

 

[MommaBison]

I'm not sure it will work, because you already have one cross as the sire. He doesn't have 2 barring genes himself, he has 1. Therefore half his offspring, regardless of sex, will get a barring gene, because in birds the males are the homomorphic(WW) sex. The legbar will pass her barring to all her sons, because barring is not on the female designated gene, it is only on the W gene, hence why it is sexlinked. The sire can still pass barring to his daughters since he carries one, and he might not pass it evenly. Hope this explanation helps!

This makes sense for the barring! They'll all be barred, I should further qualify my question, will they be auto-sexing? I'm just now learning about genetics, so if barring is linked to auto-sexing, that's new info! Thanks in advance!

 

[MommaBison]

This makes sense for the barring! They'll all be barred, I should further qualify my question, will they be auto-sexing? I'm just now learning about genetics, so if barring is linked to auto-sexing, that's new info! Thanks in advance!

Not all be barred, I confused this 50% of his offspring *could* be barred 50% may not be. That makes sense! Does the affect the auto sexing dot?