Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[Laingcroft]

http://blue-eggs.co.uk/#/legbar-history/4554275782

I found this website that may help with the history and also color issues. These roosters look totally different than the ones I've seen, but I don't care for the color as much.
I think Ice should be on the Logo myself.

He is absolutely beautiful!

The roosters pictured on your link are what the standard describes as I read it and that is what we should be breeding toward if we are going to maintain the Cream Legbar as it currently exists in the UK. It is not what I am seeing in my own rooster and pictures posted here, which is crele i.e. barred black and red.

The geneticists, APA judges or other experts, please feel free to correct me as this is my current understanding and I'm still learning. First, the base color of the Cream Legbar appears to be a "dusty black" or what is seen by the eye as dark gray as opposed to black. The "cream" is where the double dose of barring is not blocking distribution of pigment i.e. the white part --- not a diluted red i.e. pale lemon/buff mixed in with the lack of pigment which is what I see in the top of my roo's neck (pictured here)


and hen lower neck hackles



rooster hackles blending to red/chestnut back and saddle. I think this is more than "some chestnut permitted."



What all of this boils down to is a basic decision. Are we as a group going to breed to the UK standard as it is, which is more 'silver/gray' than what we all seem to have or are we going to breed the "American" Cream Legbar based upon what we all seem to have, which is a bird that contains a lot of chestnut/red/buff/lemon.

 

[Laingcroft]

While I like the popularity of BYC and agree that it gets more exposure in general, its popularity also is a disadvantage when posts get buried so quickly. Since we are trying to establish baseline documents, it would be easier to have a format that allows certain documents to be easily accessed. I am most familiar with Yahoo groups which is a discussion format with an area for quick reference to draft documents and pictures. I know it would be easier for me to focus on specific things with such a format rather than scanning through ever growing pages to find the specific info I'm looking for.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Laingcroft]

It doesn't appear in the standard as a fault (I think) but I don't like the random white tail feathers amongst the barred. My guy has one and I'm going to breed away from it.

 

[fowlman01]

To finish out the male, here's lines 15-44. Once again, (yes) means understood, even if mine does not represent this.

What do your males look like? Does anyone have a male that meets the color of the cream legbar standard? ChicKat, Stoneunhenged, do you? Others? Please post your male and discuss it within the CL standards.
Here and in the UK, is there a cream color? Have "we" lost it? I've seen what I'd call white/silver. In places, such as the hackles and saddle, there is yellow (and rust) (what is the pale gold described below).

For comparison, Punnett describes his male as "barred all over, though the general effect is definitely lighter and softer than in a barred breed such as the Pymouth Rock. At the same time the pale gold of the hackles and the bright chestnut of the wing coverts lead to his presenting an appearance at once brilliant and quite unlike that of the male of any recognized breed."




16. Neck: Long and profusely covered with feathers. (yes)

17a. Legs and Feet: Legs moderately long. (yes)
17b.Shanks strong, round and free of feathers. (yes)
17c. Flat shins objectionable. (what does this mean?)
17d. Toes, four, long, straight and well spread. (yes)

18. Plumage: Of silky texture, free from coarse or excessive feather. (yes)

19. Handling: Firm with abundance of muscle. (yes)
20. Neck hackles cream, sparsely barred. (yes understood) (mine is not, I’d describe mine as peppered silver, yellow, and rust)
21. Saddle hackles cream, barred with dark grey, tipped with cream. (yes) (mine yellow and rust)
22. Back and shoulders cream with dark grey barring, some chestnut permissible. (yes) (high amount of chestnust/rust)
23. Wings, primaries dark grey, faintly barred, some white permissible; (yes) (see photo: no barring) It is what I would call faintly barred...maybe not the best example, but you can see it is barred What I like about this bird is that it does'nt have white in the wings.
24. secondaries dark grey more clearly marked; (yes) (see photo: no marking)
25. coverts grey barred, tips cream, some chestnut smudges permissible. (yes)(see photo: very chestnut, tips without light color)




26. Breast evenly barred dark grey, well defined outline. (yes) (mine not well defined)
27. Tail evenly barred grey, sickles being paler, some white feather permissible. (yes)
28. Crest cream and grey, some chestnut permissible. (yes) (mine does not have much of a crest, yellow in it)
29. Beak yellow. (yes)
30. Eyes orange or red. (yes)
31. Comb, face, and wattles red. (yes)
32. Ear-lobes pure opaque, white or cream, slight pink markings not unduly to handicap an otherwise good male. (yes) (mine with red, already gave away one lighter male due to pure red ear-lobes)
33. Legs and feet yellow. (yes) (mine poor yellow)

34. Weights
Male 2.70-3.40kg (6-7lb) (yes) (assume mine is in this range)

35. Serious defects:
Male's comb twisted or falling over, (yes)
36. Ear-lobes wholly red. (yes)
37. Any white in face. (yes)
38. Legs other than orange, yellow or light willow. (yes)
39.Squirrel tail.(yes)

40. Disqualifications: Side sprigs on comb. (yes)
41. Eye pupil other than round and clearly defined. (yes)
42. Crooked breast. (yes)
43.Wry tail. (yes)
44. Any bodily deformity. (yes)

The leg color looks good in the photo. That is an easy fix unless the legs are the wrong color. When you folks write the Standard be sure that you don't back yourselves into a corner by writing something that can't be attained.

Great idea to have bird pics posted to discuss as a group. I have included in my SOP report for this weekend at Lucasville OH that you folks are working on a Standard for the CL's.

Walt
Walt

 

[fowlman01]

The roosters pictured on your link are what the standard describes as I read it and that is what we should be breeding toward if we are going to maintain the Cream Legbar as it currently exists in the UK. It is not what I am seeing in my own rooster and pictures posted here, which is crele i.e. barred black and red.

The geneticists, APA judges or other experts, please feel free to correct me as this is my current understanding and I'm still learning. First, the base color of the Cream Legbar appears to be a "dusty black" or what is seen by the eye as dark gray as opposed to black. The "cream" is where the double dose of barring is not blocking distribution of pigment i.e. the white part --- not a diluted red i.e. pale lemon/buff mixed in with the lack of pigment which is what I see in the top of my roo's neck (pictured here)


and hen lower neck hackles



rooster hackles blending to red/chestnut back and saddle. I think this is more than "some chestnut permitted."



What all of this boils down to is a basic decision. Are we as a group going to breed to the UK standard as it is, which is more 'silver/gray' than what we all seem to have or are we going to breed the "American" Cream Legbar based upon what we all seem to have, which is a bird that contains a lot of chestnut/red/buff/lemon.

As a judge, the males in the link do not fit the color description as they appear in the pictures. None of the males I have seen do. They are either too light or too dark where they should be cream.

Walt

 

[Laingcroft]

As a judge, the males in the link do not fit the color description as they appear in the pictures. None of the males I have seen do. They are either too light or too dark where they should be cream.

Walt

I think the problem I'm having is what constitutes a 'cream' chicken in poultry terms? When I read the word cream, I am thinking of a very dilute buff (like the body color of a blue wheaten hen) or perhaps the dilution of dominant white with the pale salmon/red breast.

So when I read the words black barring on cream I am thinking the pale area caused by the barring gene is more off white than true white and barred by black only.

Basically I need to visually understand what the base color of the Cream Legbar is (the phenotype) before the barring gene does its thing. The genotype formula would be helpful too.

 

[nicalandia]

from the weblink provided...


"COLOUR
Plumage, Cream Variety, Male: Neck hackles cream, sparsely barred. Saddle hackles cream, barred with dark grey, tipped with cream. Back and shoulders cream with dark grey barring, some chestnut permissible. Wings, primaries dark grey, faintly barred, some white permissible; secondaries dark grey more clearly marked; coverts grey barred, tips cream, some chestnut smudges permissible. Breast evenly barred dark grey, well defined outline. Tail evenly barred grey, sickles being paler, some white feather permissible. Crest cream and grey, some chestnut permissible."

if we go by their description, the rooster on their website is not following their own standards... that rooster looks just like a Silver Crele with autosomal red showing on its shoulders(not even full red shoulders)..



there are two types of Silver Duckwing or Silver Crele birds, the clean ones, that lack autosomal red(cant completely inhibited by Barring, Cream, Dilute or even pure silver S/S)

here is nice clean Silver Crele bird(sorry I was not able to find birds with the clesest body type to legbar/leghorn)



another clean silver crele


A Clean Silver Crele Leghorn..



here is Silver Crele bird showing autosomal red...




is Cream with the help of Barring strong enough to give you a silver crele looking bird? I just cant see it..

 

[redchicken9]

Everyone! It's Ok if you don't have a cream male cream legbar, but could we see a few more USA male cream legbars. If you know of a great cream bird, really any cream bird, please also post. I bet a lot of you are busy. Please if you can for the weekend, look at and discuss (show) you're birds! I will move towards the female standard lines 45-67 tomorrow. Also if we should move Yahoo group for better utility, please let me know.

 

[redchicken9]

from the weblink provided...


"COLOUR
Plumage, Cream Variety, Male: Neck hackles cream, sparsely barred. Saddle hackles cream, barred with dark grey, tipped with cream. Back and shoulders cream with dark grey barring, some chestnut permissible. Wings, primaries dark grey, faintly barred, some white permissible; secondaries dark grey more clearly marked; coverts grey barred, tips cream, some chestnut smudges permissible. Breast evenly barred dark grey, well defined outline. Tail evenly barred grey, sickles being paler, some white feather permissible. Crest cream and grey, some chestnut permissible."

if we go by their description, the rooster on their website is not following their own standards... that rooster looks just like a Silver Crele with autosomal red showing on its shoulders(not even full red shoulders)..

Excellent what you did here!

 

[blackbirds13]

So I was playing around a bit and this is a first draft. Format will have to be addressed - I chose circular as that was one initial suggestion. Background - I chose blue - blue eggs and we can Pantone that for exactness. I chose Monotype Corsiva for type and pilfered the bird and digitized it just for this example. I added a simple stroke outline. It can go in any which way from here.