Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[ChicKat]

Yes, ma'am, I knew, LOL. All this wasn't going on in '58! hahhahhahahhaa

I knew you knew.....;O)

BTW, I love your new avatar..that's the chick that wanted to get back in the egg after its first glimpse of the real world right? LOL.

One other thing to mention....no one knows for certain what happened to Punnetts original flock of Cream Legbars, as I understand it. It could be that they were so in-bred, that they were not laying well and not reproducing well -- I guess the true terms are fecundity and fertility. Perhaps to save any genetics from the original Punnett birds they introduced some Barred Plymouth Rock - knowing that they could still retain the autosexing that way....and not having all the knowledge of Punnett - thus voila - olive eggs get into the standard. dunno.

 

[TheTropix]

That's why I was asking if anyone knew what year the UK changed the SOP to include the green/olive eggs. If it was 60+ years ago, that's one thing. If it was in the last 15 or so, that'd be, in my mind, proof that the Cream Legbar Breed has been tampered with in the UK to the point we can't rely on what they say or do, and need to stick as close to the original game plan as we can. We already have birds that are in or near that range,(some maybe more so than others lol)... as described originally.

 

[blackbirds13]

Wow. I went glamping and this thread just blew up again. It's made for interesting reading and given what I've seen in my own birds this discussion is hitting some ideas I have been pondering.

I do not think that a lighter shoulder will lead to an elimination of the salmon breast. I think that an intense male shoulder color may affect how much red/mahogany is displayed layering over the salmon breast on the sired female but also shows up on the top of the head, the area around the face and lower neck. That is why you have some otherwise cream colored hackled females with a darker breast and a red tinge to their face and their crests and this may also show up a bit on the male crests. I do not think cream has very much dilution effect on the male shoulders but still not sure but you can see how much gold is present by looking at the secondaries in that triangle when the wing is folded, I am still unsure if this is effected by mahogany but am doubtful. The natural color of the female salmon breast is independent of how intense the mahogany can become on the male shoulders, in my opinion thus far but can also be intensified by it. This can also affect the stippling effect you see on the females that appear darker/browner or lighter/grayer
I do not think double breeding is necessary for most but some folks will do it because it is their preference. I won't for issues of space and I have no desire. I think we need to breed and hatch a lot more of these birds and keep throwing ideas and findings around for quite a bit more so we are clear on what the genes can and cannot produce, effect and are affected.
As for the crests the british SOP reads cream and gray so it allows for a darker to lighter range of color but not black which is what can occur as the cream dilution and mahogany intesification affects the basic coloring of the bird.
These are just my own observations from breeding my own birds and from my own personal reading and research so nothing biblical here.

 

[fowlman01]

content vs wording, what I meant to convey is.. would it be necessary to 'thumbs up' dark crests and 'thumbs down' or points off, according to APA judging standards, in the SOP for the Cream Legbar for less than dark crests? potato/potatoe I t's not the wording, I'm asking if it's realistic to have, in the Standard, in some form that " the crest should reflect the basic (correct) color of the individual (correctly colored) bird ... allowing for the small variations that nature just seem to insist on.... across the board? ie: 2 Champion Barred Plymouth Rocks - an east coast bird, a west coast bird - side by side... one will be slightly, yet perceptibly, darker/lighter than the other.
That is what I'm saying re: the Crest description in the SOP here in the USA. Should it be considered even a minor fault if the cuff matches the collar??
Walt, suppose the lighter birds started losing the auto sexing trait, and requireing double breeding to maintain the salmon breast, the way I have read, but don't KNOW for certain, of the UK's lighter birds.
Would you clarify what you said about according to the APA, a Breed must breed true at least 50% of the time. Is that so? If Punnet suggests that these birds need no double breeding to maintain the Breed, then any requirement of a double breeding, to maintain SOP descriptions, should prevent that Breed from entering the APA, if I understand you correctly.
Is that a correct understanding or is that an incorrect understanding of what you said?

You know....the more you chew on this the bigger it will get. Have you read all the pages here?

The crest description might be able to have some latitude, but generally we do not allow a range of shades. What is the correct color. I don't know. You don't have to go coast to coast to see variations in this color. GFF has a bunch of different shades that they are selling that are supposed to be the same shade. Greenfire does not encourage Standards and it is easy to see why not. It will be based on how you write your Standard if it is a penalty to have a different cuff or collar as you call it. Suppose they lose the autosexing.....well they will if someone doesn't start learning how to breed these. It will only take 2 years to totally destroy the breed.

The most important part of any breed is the BODY, not the color. The body's of these legbars need a lot of work to pass a qualifying meet. Don't lose sight of the most important parts by getting hung up on small items.

"Is that so"? Why that question? Does it seem as if I'm joking around here? As soon as you newbies see double mating you go off the deep end. Does anyone here even really know what it is? You dont have to do it.....it is just an easy way for the 1% of you that will actually show these birds to meet the color requirements. They are your birds, make them look like anything you like if you don't want to have them accepted or don't care about showing.

To reproduce at 50% is very generous to allow for some of the colors like blue. I don't know how you arrived at your conclusion that double mating would exclude a breed. Buy a APA Standard and read the first 40 pages. I don't have the time to type 40 pages of info so that everyone on BYC can understand basic poultry breeding and terminology.

Walt

 

[ChicKat]

drat,

I just wrote this long, expansive post -- that was the ultimate answer to all questions, and it is spinning in another tab and not posting. It will probably be lost forever. -- Ho ho.

Well maybe not all the answers to all the questions.... I hope it doesn't go into cyber dust.

Blackbirds13-- could you elaborate a tiny bit on what you are seeing in female crests? maybe a pict with a cell phone? I'm not 100% sure I get it -- but as always, you are most likely on to something.

 

[ChicKat]

You know....the more you chew on this the bigger it will get. Have you read all the pages here?

The crest description might be able to have some latitude, but generally we do not allow a range of shades. What is the correct color. I don't know. You don't have to go coast to coast to see variations in this color. GFF has a bunch of different shades that they are selling that are supposed to be the same shade. Greenfire does not encourage Standards and it is easy to see why not. It will be based on how you write your Standard if it is a penalty to have a different cuff or collar as you call it. Suppose they lose the autosexing.....well they will if someone doesn't start learning how to breed these. It will only take 2 years to totally destroy the breed.

The most important part of any breed is the BODY, not the color. The body's of these legbars need a lot of work to pass a qualifying meet. Don't lose sight of the most important parts by getting hung up on small items.

"Is that so"? Why that question? Does it seem as if I'm joking around here? As soon as you newbies see double mating you go off the deep end. Does anyone here even really know what it is? You dont have to do it.....it is just an easy way for the 1% of you that will actually show these birds to meet the color requirements. They are your birds, make them look like anything you like if you don't want to have them accepted or don't care about showing.

To reproduce at 50% is very generous to allow for some of the colors like blue. I don't know how you arrived at your conclusion that double mating would exclude a breed. Buy a APA Standard and read the first 40 pages. I don't have the time to type 40 pages of info so that everyone on BYC can understand basic poultry breeding and terminology.

Walt

Thanks Walt,
for your patience and support as always.

I think I understand how you are saying that the body type is not right and that is the most important thing. -- for correct body type, And I think you may have suggested this before, and others as well...are we looking to match against the champion brown or light brown leghorns of which there are some good pictures on the internet, and probably in the Leghorn Club's website.

To expert eyes like yours -- it must seem that some of our chickens are kind of scroungy looking -- and some are approaching the correct type. Is it something like a champion Light Brown Leghorn that is the correct template for the Cream Legbar?

Thanks for any added insights on type.

 

[TheTropix]

Walt,Dang, I am sorry about the giant Is that so? It wasn't like that when I typed it, I swear! Is that so, meant; Do I understand what I'd read about the CL? No disrespect or doubts intended.

 

[ChicKat]

Walt,Dang, I am sorry about the giant Is that so? It wasn't like that when I typed it, I swear! Is that so, meant; Do I understand what I'd read about the CL? No disrespect or doubts intended.

That's spooky -- the thread put your type in really big and bold...and swallowed up the one that I wrote that answered all the questions. It's haunted this afternoon......

 

[ChicKat]

hi Walt--and everyone,

Maybe I have one of the answers to my own question....this is a link to a photo - I think the British SOP has Legbar as its BREED and then Cream Legbar as a variety--

So the cockerel should look like this image
http://s22.postimg.org/a50mu4qe9/online_standard.gif

Still thinking that the female should look like a champion brown leghorn -- with a crest and the added influence of the BPR and Araucana factors.

ETA: the link was graciously provided to us in the Legbar Thread by HaHaUthinkSo!

 

[dretd]

hi Walt--and everyone,

Maybe I have one of the answers to my own question....this is a link to a photo - I think the British SOP has Legbar as its BREED and then Cream Legbar as a variety--

So the cockerel should look like this image
http://s22.postimg.org/a50mu4qe9/online_standard.gif

Still thinking that the female should look like a champion brown leghorn -- with a crest and the added influence of the BPR and Araucana factors.

Man I go away for the weekend and bam, the CL threads have been on fire.

ChicKat, this is what I have always understood--the Gold and Silver were admitted first then the Cream Variety was added much later. The Cockerel that is pictured appears to my eye to be quite young--just not quite grown up and filled out yet (note spur size, comb development, leggy, etc). I have been thinking that many of the modern-day hens we see pictured are a bit heavy-looking but that may be the softness of the feathers making the body appear heavier than it really is.