Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[lonnyandrinda]

I just kinda think we have the unique opportunity to get it right the first time. We don't have a 1930 SOP we have to follow. We can have a 2011 SOP --when they arrived here. Or does the AMERICAN Poultry Association demand that we follow the UK SOP exactly?? (if so, I'll hush!!). I certainly don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, tho, as I know there's so many of you who have invested countless hours (and are still!) on this subject.


-Marla Waite

Marla-
It has been strongly suggested to us by Walt, who is a chairman on the APA committee, that we will have an easier route to APA acceptance if we follow closely the British standard for Cream Legbars. In addition, I think many people value the HISTORY of the breed- that's part of why there is SO much discussion about color as the early Cream Legbar photos we have been able to locate are black and white, of course!! So the club has put our focus towards aiming for the type of bird that Punnett, Pease, et. al intended to make, with heavy reliance on the UK standard. However, the UK standard allows a lot more "wiggle room" in their wording than the USA, for example, the UK states "5-7 points" on the comb whereas the APA requires a single number to be listed as "ideal."

It is a tricky balance, especially when you add in the discussions about what color is "possible" to get genetically with the US birds- we don't want to create an unachievable standard. But many people who have been around from the beginning of the discussion have realized that before we can get to that answer we really just need time to breed these birds and see what we can get. Wise advice considering we have a 5 year wait until we can apply for APA acceptance anyway. So for you new people, here's where we are at, I know color is going to keep coming up, but keep in mind some of these questions CAN'T BE ANSWERED YET! Welcome!

I think there is a lot of sense to this, but it will take some time. How about, as we go through the body sections of the chicken, that we attach some OAC colors for reference (I think we're going to do 5 parts at a time in the upcoming series, until we've taken a close look at the whole bird)?

That sounds like an awesome idea!

Great reply and thanks for the link to the hen jackets--they gave me a laugh!

I think that for me, I do see things a bit differently from you and I do think we are representative of the push and pull if the discussions of the Cream Legbar coloration.

For me, Cream Legbars were developed by geneticists looking at the Cream gene (in a Mendelian way since this was before the double helix was discovered). They knew a lot about this gene and knew it was different than silver and that it diluted gold. The names of the Legbars are a reflection of the genetics of the bird and not of the visual representation of the bird. That is not to say that all cream ig/ig legbars look like silver ones despite what Pease had said*. I think there will be some variety in coloration because of the unknown other factors (AR/melanization). So for me it is very important to fall back to the original intent of the breed which is to have a breed consisting of ig/ig genetics in all of its variety. Once you have a set of birds that are genetically Cream, then you can test out how that is expressed in the birds and how much variety there is in the coloration with the modifiers present.

X2. This is exactly where I have decided I sit right now. Once my flock is all ig/ig, THEN I will be able to breed and see what the OTHER modifiers are doing to the cream color. I'm set to start in the spring!!!! So pleased with my cream girls that are growing out, and crossing my fingers that nothing happens to my top (cream) rooster...

 

[chicken pickin]

I think there is a lot of sense to this, but it will take some time. How about, as we go through the body sections of the chicken, that we attach some OAC colors for reference (I think we're going to do 5 parts at a time in the upcoming series, until we've taken a close look at the whole bird)?

Sounds perfect.

That sounds like an awesome idea!

I am very glad an idea of mine might come in handy for others.

 

[WHmarans]

Until we find a close to SOP rooster to post pics of for reference, I wonder if it might start to help people visualize each individual ideal color for a rooster and hen if  we use the OAC color chart and list the boxes that are ideal for each color on all parts of the body, boxes that closely match to our ideal cream(pale butter) also the boxes that are ideal for the salmon breast, the gray in the  barring, the chestnut etc. Those boxes of color don't change if you have it on paper in front of you so people wouldnt have to wonder if there computer is showing true colors. So if we can decide on something like that then people could physically hold the feather to the boxes and see where they are. I don't know if this sounds silly but it was just a thought since everyone is still seemingly confused by what pale butter means. I feel I have a good idea. 

Don't we consider the GFF new launch rooster photo as a pretty good one? I think it looks like a beautiful roo. And not just black and white.

 

[WHmarans]

I'm surprised we still have so few out there at this point that we can't be sure the would be standard color exists. What about UK birds? Some must be close to their standard even if only for color?

 

[normanack]

I'm surprised we still have so few out there at this point that we can't be sure the would be standard color exists. What about UK birds? Some must be close to their standard even if only for color?

I think the Cream Legbar British facebook page was started because there's a lot of confusion about color over there, too.

 

[WHmarans]

I

I think the Cream Legbar British facebook page was started because there's a lot of confusion about color over there, too.

guess that doesn't make importing their standard easy. I see.

 

[KPenley]

There are actually quite a number of cream birds in the USA now, but many of the breeders are keeping their flocks closed and not offering eggs/chicks yet because we're not yet happy with other aspects of our birds. For example, I don't want to pass on the possibility of wry tail or any other DQ fault. I think you'll see more and more available in the coming 1-2 years. Plus, it's been said before so pardon my repetition, cream is one of those hard to photograph colors. The OAC chart will help.

 

[blackbirds13]

So I thought I'd post some photos of what I think folks are terming silver and then some that are less so and then gold hackles. My birds are not perfect and have flaws in many areas but this is just to help with the silver hackle aspect.
This is one of my gold hackle females I gave away to a local friend to make EE's




This is one of my cream juvie girls. This is the hackle color I think most will get when they go for cream. The melanizers or Autosomals may affect it but this cream seems to be consistent in my flock. It is not a white-white but it is not yellow in appearance.



This is what I assume folks mean by the 'silver' female - notice the lack of Red around the face giving her a paler appearance. She throws only cream offspring.




This is my favorite hen disposition wise. She regrew her feathers with the white barring showing that was not as evident prior. Her hackles are the same color as the hen above but notice the red around the face. She throws only cream offspring


This is one of my juveniles with same hackle color but red face and crest feather


this female is very light gold hackle as her hackles appear more pale gold than cream, the tips seem more cream-colored but I'm going to let her grow out and see what she looks like when she gets older and maybe test mate her



This is another of my faves. She hates me though. Her hackles are the same cream color but her red is inbetween the 2 others. Her crest when it grows back is mostly cream and gray with no real chestnut. This girl is larger in size and her stance is more upright.
.



These have cream hackle but I was hoping to capture the more cream/dirty white nature of the color.


This girl is one of just a couple gold girls I have. The color is very pale gold and she has the red around her face and in her crest.

as I said they are not perfect but I have about 16 or more cream hackled girls that I hope will make it to next spring. I really need to go into the coop this weekend. I am not posting my birds as the standard we should all be striving for but just for a comparison of what the surrounding neck and face chestnut coloring may be doing to affect the overall look of the bird. The older girls are in the process of regrowing feathers so they may look a bit rough but I have them separated from the boys so I can see what they look like type wise once they are all finished molting and re-feathering.

 

[WHmarans]

Thank you for these!

 

[ChicKat]

ChicKat that makes a lot of sense. Roos must very important even if only because one roo usually pairs with many hens and has more influence over the whole resulting flock than any single hen. (Unless culling makes a particular hen as important). I think ill take the possibly low odds route of getting some GFF Roos if I can and see where that gets me!

you cannot go wrong with GFF roosters IMO - It is amazing to see the fabulous CLs that are being posted -- and as I just wrote in my article for the next CL Club newsletter, ALL the CLs in the USA trace back to Greenfire Farms!!