Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[nicalandia]

Quote:
No Silver gene have been found on American Stock of CCL, very few people lack the genetic knowledge to pull this off(I am sure a few could be doing this on Europe, but not here)... I did mention that a Silver based bird with red enhancers could produce birds with the exact phenotype, but this is beyond your average back yard breeders that make up for 99% of CCL breeders in the USA, heck even GFF seem to lack the need it genetic advise from somebody dedicated at this trade(chicken genetics)

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
with the right genes one can produce a silver male with cream saddle and it would be alot Easier to have nice Cream/butter hackled females with bright Salmon breasts too if one use Silver.... if Only I had access to some of GFF birds... but as I said I dought anybody is doing this on the USA or that Jill rees birds are Silver..

 

[KPenley]

Regarding the possibility of the UK SOP being incorrect, such things have happened. After all by that time Punnett was in his 70's.

I'm still confused about what you're saying...

Are you saying that a group of breeders who continued the Cream Legbar breed that Punnett and Pease created wrote a standard, accepted it, entered it in for consideration, attended the mandatory shows and obtained acceptance...and then it was printed wrong? And it just so happened to stay that way since the breed lost popularity about 15-20 years later?

Or are you saying that the initial establishing standardizing breeders changed the original bird created by the Professors, and got their version accepted into the PCGB (while Punnett was most likely President of the Autosexing Association, and Pease was still an active writer for the Journal of Genetics and Autosexing Annuals as well as a teacher at Cambridge)?

Or an error of something else different entirely?

On the topic of Silver: Silver looking birds have been proved as cream by test mating with golden birds over in the UK. It is very easy to test your bird for gold versus silver.

 

[ChicKat]

didn't you say something about not underestimating a professor in his 70's. I would use the old man smiley you did that waves his finger but my phone can't use those. Ive met some rather spunky sharp and very active people that are in there 70-80s.

at the time the British a sop was created the lagbars we're in complete disarray or was all that later on I can't remember. The people who tried to bring Legbars back to what they should be I would have no doubt they could have used a silver bird to correct color.

I think gff was taking the short road when they used four or five different sources to get wherTheir at now. All that mixing is what were left with to sort threw and breed selectively. I see many many variations I seen good birds come from GFF this year and some very very very warm ones if not brown. the warnings been made mixing lines brings out more problems and a longer Road. like it or not I think we're all dealing with that mixing of the lines

Yes... I did say that. LOL, and I wanted the old man smiley too--- but didn't have access on the tablet either. I was being tongue-in-cheek. It is possible for errors to creep in for young and for old!

 

[ChicKat]

With your permission nicalandia...since you always are willing to help us, I'm producing the genetic sequence:

if you cross a CCL rooster(let say Rich colored one) to a Silver Duckwing Leghorn then this will produce Sexlinks that will look autosexing, females will be goldbased(brownish chipmunk down, no headspot) and Males with headspot(silverish chipmunk down) the males will grow to be golden Crele looking birds(lemon colored hackle/saddle) with Dark/black Barring on body(undefined barring) with maybe black tails(it happens) now you take this males and cross it back to Legbars will poduce 50% barred pullets and 50% non barred pullets, 25% cream gold pullets and 25% cream silver pullets, 25% gold pullets and 25% Silver pullets..


50% of Males will be golden and 50% will be gold(50% of that will be gold cream)

cream golden males S/s+ ig/ig B/B(doucle barring) will look 100% Silver Crested Legbars
golden S/s+ B/B Ig/ig+ males will look like cream colored legbars males, almost no difference between them a full cream gold legbar males, maybe lighter due to S being more powerful diluter than ig


As you can see, it is rather complex. To select the correct bird from the mix would take a deal of expertise, and growing the birds to a more mature state than most are willing or able to do.

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
I am more than Willing and more than Able to pull this off...... but I cant because I am in Nicaragua...

 

[ChicKat]

I'm still confused about what you're saying...

Are you saying that a group of breeders who continued the Cream Legbar breed that Punnett and Pease created wrote a standard, accepted it, entered it in for consideration, attended the mandatory shows and obtained acceptance...and then it was printed wrong? And it just so happened to stay that way since the breed lost popularity about 15-20 years later?

Or are you saying that the initial establishing standardizing breeders changed the original bird created by the Professors, and got their version accepted into the PCGB (while Punnett was most likely President of the Autosexing Association, and Pease was still an active writer for the Journal of Genetics and Autosexing Annuals as well as a teacher at Cambridge)?

Or an error of something else different entirely?

On the topic of Silver: Silver looking birds have been proved as cream by test mating with golden birds over in the UK. It is very easy to test your bird for gold versus silver.

1. The Cream Legbar is gold based.
2. The UK SOP used the description of the silver legbar and substituted the word cream for silver if the wording on this site is correct:
http://autosexing-poultry.co.uk/wordpress/legbar/
3. If the Cream Legbar has any silver in, then it would look lighter, but no longer be a Cream Legbar. Silver will lighten but at that point the ig/ig would be irrelevant
4. Selecting for silver based chicks would perpetuate the silver birds
5. Pease stated that the chicks should be as gold and the above referenced SOP states the chicks should be as silver
6. Errors are possible in even the greatest of places

If the persons breeding -test mating Silver Cream Gold had a bird with some of the complex genetics that nicalandia identified, how are they exactly sure what they were breeding together?

It could very well be, and probably is - genetically that a lot of the birds that have been called gold legbars are actually cream legbars.
Does anyone have a picture of a gold legbar? I suspect that they look like the darkest bird in this sequence of three.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/713115/cream-legbar-working-group-standard-of-perfection/180 - check post 185 for the three views of CL. I suggest that the darkest is a gold and the lightest is a silver, and the mid-range one is a Cream Legbar.

There are ranges of cream, it could be that the one that looks silver is also cream, and the photo has flattened the colors. It could also be that inadvertently in search of lightness the selection process produced that silver genetics. Just as the white sport CL pops up from time to time - there are/may be other genetic combinations that are doing this.

I could be mistaken, but if you change the word gold for the word cream in the gold-legbar description in the above reference from autosexing poultry, suddenly you are describing the birds in the USA, many of the birds in the UK - and you are being more faithful to the genetic foundation of the Cream Legbar.

Also it has occurred to me that the Diane Jacky illustration of Cream Legbars shows the bird with dark barring on the male breast, cream Hackles and saddles, and a female with salmon breast and a more grayed taupe color. -- I think this representation more closely represents the CL than a white-looking bird.
http://www.zazzle.com/diane+jacky+plates

What makes you think that a white-looking bird is cream?

 

[ChicKat]

Quote: More's the pity.

I think that the focus needs possibly to be on the melanizers. When the SOP for golds in the UK says something about the saddle feathers with as little black as possible...how would that be achieved? And-- how to breed away the dark feather tips in salmon breast feathers of the females and the occaisional white spots.

 

[WHmarans]

On the topic of Silver: Silver looking birds have been proved as cream by test mating with golden birds over in the UK. It is very easy to test your bird for gold versus silver.

Ok how do I do it? When I want to know if my horse is cremello I pull out some hair and send it for analysis. But here I'm guessing a cross with a known silver? Like what?

 

[WHmarans]

Quote:
I am more than Willing and more than Able to pull this off...... but I cant because I am in Nicaragua...

Ok nicalandia you can be in charge of my flock . Ill send you lots of pictures and you can pick from now on!