Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[babymakes6]

If the UK standard (adapted to an American format) is pursued I think the basic genetics for attaining that standard already exist in the US. I quote from a UK friend who has seen pictures of our birds and who has raised and shown some of the best cream legbars in the UK:

I went through alot of birds with gold neck hackles to start with! I finally managed to source some with cream/grey neck hackles and a boy who had hardly any colour and went from there really. In the first year I bred the light coloured male with hens who had more grey than cream in their neck hackles as this mating produced good pullets with pretty much 50/50 cream/grey necks and went on from there. Your birds look pretty nice to me, if I had to find any fault I would say that the males chest looks slightly dark and the female's barring is quite distinctive, it should be a bit softer. The male has a great straight comb though! They are the right colour so you have a good base to work from.

So, with the focused effort of the group here and others who will come later I don't foresee any insurmountable barriers to achieving the UK standard with the steady application of effort over time.

 

[redchicken9]

If the UK standard (adapted to an American format) is pursued I think the basic genetics for attaining that standard already exist in the US. I quote from a UK friend who has seen pictures of our birds and who has raised and shown some of the best cream legbars in the UK:

I went through alot of birds with gold neck hackles to start with! I finally managed to source some with cream/grey neck hackles and a boy who had hardly any colour and went from there really. In the first year I bred the light coloured male with hens who had more grey than cream in their neck hackles as this mating produced good pullets with pretty much 50/50 cream/grey necks and went on from there. Your birds look pretty nice to me, if I had to find any fault I would say that the males chest looks slightly dark and the female's barring is quite distinctive, it should be a bit softer. The male has a great straight comb though! They are the right colour so you have a good base to work from.

So, with the focused effort of the group here and others who will come later I don't foresee any insurmountable barriers to achieving the UK standard with the steady application of effort over time.

I like your final sentence, as optimism is the best way to go. On your friend, 50/50 are nice odds. The only thing is your friend managed to source some cream/grey neck hackles and a boy who had hardly any color and went from there. It seems like we might currently be missing this type of resource. Comment here, please. Do the genetics of a cream neck hackle, cream saddled, cream and grey crested male, with some chestnut permissible in a few limited areas (but in the example above almost none) exist in your flock?

 

[MnMPoultry]

Now, I would love to comment on the standard breakdowns about my Legbars, but they aren't old enough for me to make judgments. I'll roll fully with the standard we devise when it comes to be, but if we deviate too much, I'll also have a flock being bred to the UK standard.

Also, being that I have some of these White Creams, I will be breeding them as well, but hopefully we'll keep our standard close enough to UK that I don't have to keep two flocks.

 

[redchicken9]

Thank-you Stoneunhenged, Blackbirds13 and MnMPoultry for being in favor of the UK standards. Are there any further supporting individuals or dissenting?
Can we have a few more responses? Where would you like to go with this? Finish the review of the female shape? Are Blackbirds13, BabyMakes6, and GaryDean26 wanting to do this, as prior? Should I continue to look at the color of our birds, or not bother with this? I want to be responsive to what people are thinking. I know there is value in doing a full review, but there is no value as an exercise for me alone. Our birds, perhaps best to say, my birds have a long way to go, especially since gold is present and cream is less or not so. I'd like to know more how to resolve this. However, overall, what is in the group's best interest and can we ensure we are increasing success versus limiting it?

 

[KPenley]

I support an American English version of the UK standards.

I'll also be experimenting with the removal of autosomal red and hopefully gold, as per nicolandia's recommendations, over the next 3-5 years. If anyone else is planning to try this I would love to keep in contact with you. My babies should be mature enough by summer 2013 to start the process.

If you have the time to keep it up, redchicken9, I am learning a lot from the evaluations and comments by members. I think this process should continue until we have the number of show birds required for our preliminary show. Any future comments pertaining to correct shape and color achievements will help the rest of us breed in the right direction.

 

[Dirt Farmer]

I don't think the US Legbars are in a disasterous state. In any breed, there are very few individuals coming close to the standard. Look on auction sites at some of the more common breeds and you will see mostly forgetable examples. Blackbirds13 definately has pullets with cream hackles. That's a good starting place. Most master breeders are hatching in the hundreds and keeping a handful. As a group we may have hatched a couple hundred birds. It will take a couple thousand more no doubt. I know in the past I've written about preferring a Crested Gold Legbar, and not even pretending to breed Cream Legbars. While I may amuse myself with that project it is doomed to fail on a large scale. It has no history, no track record of achievement. The Cream Legbar has a well documented history and a record of producing productive egg laying hybrids. Its a whimsical bird that worked. I think to be taken seriously the US birds should be identical to the original.
I think this process has been good because as a group we tend to be novices. The experienced breeders are focusing on those breeds that decorate the pages of the Poultry Press. I think it is educational to throw out ideas and get feedback. Through the discussion we clarify what the standard is describing. If we are persistent, help each other, compete with each other, try things and learn from them, I have no doubt that we can have some very good birds in the US that can stand up to the original standard. I recognize that the language will vary from the UK version, but the birds should be the same.
We need a standard because US chickens are standard bred.

 

[babymakes6]

Thank-you Stoneunhenged, Blackbirds13 and MnMPoultry for being in favor of the UK standards. Are there any further supporting individuals or dissenting?
Can we have a few more responses? Where would you like to go with this? Finish the review of the female shape? Are Blackbirds13, BabyMakes6, and GaryDean26 wanting to do this, as prior? Should I continue to look at the color of our birds, or not bother with this? I want to be responsive to what people are thinking. I know there is value in doing a full review, but there is no value as an exercise for me alone. Our birds, perhaps best to say, my birds have a long way to go, especially since gold is present and cream is less or not so. I'd like to know more how to resolve this. However, overall, what is in the group's best interest and can we ensure we are increasing success versus limiting it?

I am still wanting to do this, but I've not been feeling well for the last couple of days, so I haven't gotten it done yet.
I would also like to breed towards whatever standard is decided upon-and would also like more information on resolving the cream issue, too.

 

[GaryDean26]

I don't think the US Legbars are in a disastrous state. In any breed, there are very few individuals coming close to the standard. Look on auction sites at some of the more common breeds and you will see mostly forgettable examples. Blackbirds13 definitely has pullets with cream hackles. That's a good starting place. Most master breeders are hatching in the hundreds and keeping a handful. As a group we may have hatched a couple hundred birds. It will take a couple thousand more no doubt. I know in the past I've written about preferring a Crested Gold Legbar, and not even pretending to breed Cream Legbars. While I may amuse myself with that project it is doomed to fail on a large scale. It has no history, no track record of achievement. The Cream Legbar has a well documented history and a record of producing productive egg laying hybrids. Its a whimsical bird that worked. I think to be taken seriously the US birds should be identical to the original.
I think this process has been good because as a group we tend to be novices. The experienced breeders are focusing on those breeds that decorate the pages of the Poultry Press. I think it is educational to throw out ideas and get feedback. Through the discussion we clarify what the standard is describing. If we are persistent, help each other, compete with each other, try things and learn from them, I have no doubt that we can have some very good birds in the US that can stand up to the original standard. I recognize that the language will vary from the UK version, but the birds should be the same.
We need a standard because US chickens are standard bred.

Yes...I think that we all agree that going through the standard and hashing it out has been very positive. We all have thrown out personal preferences in the process that deviate from the UK standard. My wife gets to keep what every she wants for the laying flock, so I am sure we will have a lot of her personal preferences at our place for years to come, but Dirtfarmer is spot on that the historical tract record of the Cream Legbar is the best thing that we have going and that personal preference will not last the test of time.

I move that keep the color description as it is listed in the UK stand and focus on rewording it to increase clarity for judges and breeds in the USA.

I also would like to continue our point by point review as do so to make sure we all understand as much as we can from every point.

Thanks Redchicken9 for you excellent job at leading the discussion and keeping the things moving in the best direction.

 

[lmatvey]

As a potential future buyer/breeder of cream legbars, I would like to adopt an american worded UK standard. Also, breeding is kind of a hobby thing done on a small scale for shows. ANYTHING worth wile should take a conciderable amount of time and attention. If Green fire farms has imported more already they may import more in the future, and if it catches on, who knows how many others might?


Depest love and respect to all on this thread/project!

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Wow what a fantastic discussion we have had going on. I know at first I was one of the voices for an Americanized CL standard, but the more I study and read and discuss here the more I am moving to the consensus of adhering the the British Standard (with the obvious language changes, etc, and still dropping the olive eggs?). It is very heartening to hear those with experience saying it IS possible to get our birds where they need to be. As much work as it is going to be- it IS possible.

I received the Online Auction Color Chart yesterday in the mail, and WOW it is fantastic. It is such a fabulous resource I think EVERY chicken owner who wants to work on breeding and compare egg/feather colors long distance should get it. It will definitely be useful for our group here! Thank you ChicKat for finding this and bringing it to our attention. For reference for those who have already ordered this chart, the CL hatching eggs I received in the mail yesterday from Jordan Farm are color oac123. I was surprised they are on the green color page not the blue!

Rinda