Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[redchicken9]

For those of us who are "anatomically challenged"

Glad to see this! Love that you/ I could color the image! Thanks for posting and also thanks for the review.

Not certain what to do on the beak color. I like yellow for the males. Will look more at my females to see what their beaks are like. Also we need to determine Body,Fluff, and Undercolor. In some ways I like how the SOP separates each part and describes. Makes referencing exact look easier. Will look at these things and post for my roo(s) tomorrow.

Echoing ChicKat, welcome Judy. Also agree let's keep it going and finish as soon as we can! I'll PM GaryDean26 to see if he's able/willing to take his male(s) through the color review.

Also I'd like to go to the legbar thread and cream legbar club -WWIT and say where we are at, what needs to be done to finish and see if we have some more voices join in.

 

[babymakes6]

Personally, I am having fun!

 

[redchicken9]

Yes to fun!!

Not a contest to the finish line, but still good to have it under our belt as a group! We're going through this step by step to make sure we all know where we stand and the hard work ahead to have an official breed. Step 1: defining the breed (SOP), then after that it's all about meeting the standard with consistency (breeds true to standard) and the having the numbers of owners to represent the cream legbar in each class (as specified by the APA committee).

 

[ChicKat]

Rinda, I looked that up mainly for ME, because I often get confused on the terms, but I thought others might be more willing to tackle the descriptions if they had a reference to fall back on.
I think ICE is the prettiest Legbar I have seen yet-in fact, I borrowed ChicKat's thinking-we named our two cockerels (Cream of) Wheat and (Cream) Soda!

LOL - I love it....and yes Ice's name was a memory cue for people forgetting the new term cream legbar -- I love your names!!

 

[ChicKat]

Yes to fun!!

Not a contest to the finish line, but still good to have it under our belt as a group! We're going through this step by step to make sure we all know where we stand and the hard work ahead to have an official breed. Step 1: defining the breed (SOP), then after that it's all about meeting the standard with consistency (breeds true to standard) and the having the numbers of owners to represent the cream legbar in each class (as specified by the APA committee).

Great job..I'm in awe.

Also to the beak color question, my vote is if the Brits have yellow beak for the female we should too? Even if we all have horn-color or not pure yellow---etc. I wonder if this is an age thing..I'm trying to remember back to the babies and I think they were all yellow. But for this draft, I think we should match what is existing.

That leads to an interesting dilemma---what would be the hit (in a show) to a hen if we never have other than horn-colored beaks.

 

[blackbirds13]

Great job..I'm in awe.

Also to the beak color question, my vote is if the Brits have yellow beak for the female we should too? Even if we all have horn-color or not pure yellow---etc. I wonder if this is an age thing..I'm trying to remember back to the babies and I think they were all yellow. But for this draft, I think we should match what is existing.

That leads to an interesting dilemma---what would be the hit (in a show) to a hen if we never have other than horn-colored beaks.

I have tried to think of this SOP as a work in progress so to speak. I think that we will, in the next few years, have a much clearer idea of what is possible with this breed for us here in the US, especially without some major new influx of birds. How cream can our birds get? Will the beaks be yellow or horn-colored? Will there ever be a truly universally blue egg? I think now that there are some parameters to guide us we will have some interesting things to mull over and compare as we all breed forward. I would hope that if somethings prove close to impossible for us here or if preferences are universal that we can amend our SOP to ameliaorate what ever the issue is.
Perhaps beside age, any use of the beak may affect the color and condition? Never really gave this much thought.
In regards to type are we keeping the weights that the British SOP carries? I've not weighed anybody but one of my pullets seems to be so much bigger than the other 3 older girls - bigger than her mom for sure. These are not supposed to be specifically dual purpose correct? But she does look nicely sized even though I like the slight size and the corresponding feed cost of the Legbars (those Marans are not cost-effective!). I know at least she or her sister are laying as I have gotten 3 eggs for the last few days, and the sizes are a nice range. I think my number 2 hen has increased her egg size after taking a couple weeks off. Think the lack of light played a part in that.

 

[redchicken9]

I believe the photo above is from the breast.

Fluff: (SOP indicates a need for color here, referring to the soft downy feathering on the inner side of the lower thighs and on the abdomen). Redchicken9: I think this is barred light and dark grey, I just don't know if it would be cream and grey on a more cream, cream legbar.



Body: (Not denoted in BPS, this part SOP describes as the color exclusive of back and breast; specifically lower sides of body, abdomen and stern). Redchicken9: Barred light and dark grey. Again my bird may not be the bird to look at.



Undercolor of All Sections: (BPS lacks description; SOP states it’s the color of the lower or fluff portion of feathers, not visible when the feathers are in natural position). Redchicken9: light grey to white?



Ok, thanks let me know what you see here and on your own for these sections.

 

[redchicken9]

I have tried to think of this SOP as a work in progress so to speak. I think that we will, in the next few years, have a much clearer idea of what is possible with this breed for us here in the US, especially without some major new influx of birds. How cream can our birds get? Will the beaks be yellow or horn-colored? Will there ever be a truly universally blue egg? I think now that there are some parameters to guide us we will have some interesting things to mull over and compare as we all breed forward. I would hope that if somethings prove close to impossible for us here or if preferences are universal that we can amend our SOP to ameliaorate what ever the issue is.
Perhaps beside age, any use of the beak may affect the color and condition? Never really gave this much thought.
In regards to type are we keeping the weights that the British SOP carries? I've not weighed anybody but one of my pullets seems to be so much bigger than the other 3 older girls - bigger than her mom for sure. These are not supposed to be specifically dual purpose correct? But she does look nicely sized even though I like the slight size and the corresponding feed cost of the Legbars (those Marans are not cost-effective!). I know at least she or her sister are laying as I have gotten 3 eggs for the last few days, and the sizes are a nice range. I think my number 2 hen has increased her egg size after taking a couple weeks off. Think the lack of light played a part in that.

Thanks Blackbirds13, you are right that time will tell. I'm not thinking impossible, but challenging for sure! The opportunity is wide open for someone to import another line of cream legbars. Yes, I skipped the Standard Weights. Here's what BPS gives 6 -7 1/2 lbs for male and 4 1/2 to 6lbs for females. The ASP asks for weight for Cock, Cockerel, Hens, and Pullet. We either all need to weigh a bunch of them, or guess, or wait until we have a show where we can get weights.
Glad yours are laying. Mine are doing well. Again thanks.

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks Blackbirds13, you are right that time will tell. I'm not thinking impossible, but challenging for sure! The opportunity is wide open for someone to import another line of cream legbars. Yes, I skipped the Standard Weights. Here's what BPS gives 6 -7 1/2 lbs for male and 4 1/2 to 6lbs for females. The ASP asks for weight for Cock, Cockerel, Hens, and Pullet. We either all need to weigh a bunch of them, or guess, or wait until we have a show where we can get weights.
Glad yours are laying. Mine are doing well. Again thanks.

I think gray and light gray for the undercolor - at least for now. We do have 5-years before the SOP would need to be finalized - right? By then we will definitely know more.

Interesting about weight of pullet and Cockerel....it would certainly depend upon the Age..... wouldn't it? At 1/2 grown, then 1/2 the adult weight? Just guessing here.....

 

[GaryDean26]

Cream Legbar Color – Male





Comb, Face and Wattles: Bright Red. Redchicken9: yes. Babymakes6: yes [GaryDean26] - Yep I am seeing Bright red on everything I have seen.

Beak: Yellow. (Here, I put yellow following the BPS, however the color ‘horn’ also shows up in ASP, examples leghorn beak color is horn; Plymouth rock, yellow. Horn may be a more natural yellow or a color dirtier than pure yellow, this is hard to say). Ok, the SOP defines horn as a broad term commonly used in describing various shadings of color in the beak (thanks Walt on the reminder to look at the glossary). Redchicken9: I think yellow is OK, but I'm still not fully certain. Below is a juvenile female, seems to be shading on her. Babymakes6: could we do yellow for male and horn for female?[GaryDean26] - Yes, I have been seeing the dirty yellow as show below on the most of the cockerels. I am not sure if I have any yellow beak cockerels (I need to check). I am not sure how to breed for beak color, but think that yellow is something that could be attained. The Basque Hens Breed has discussed beak color too. They have a wide range or beak colors, but some breeders already stated they are going to work towards yellow, so I think that we can get there in the CLB too.




Eyes: Reddish bay. (BPS describes these as orange or red. ASP states reddish bay for a large number of bird eyes that I think may have the same eye color like leghorns, Plymouth rocks, wyandottes, javas, RIR, buckeyes, etc. Different eye descriptions include Minorcas, dark brown; black breasted red modern game have red eyes, while brown red modern game have black eyes). Redchicken9: Bay = light golden brown. Above female, but eye color is truly reddish bay. Yes. Babymakes6: Yes [GaryDean26] - Yes their eyes are deffinatly more red than my Marans (which are an orange color). I would say that some form of the word red needs to be in the description. Does anyone have Orange eyes in their stock? Reddish bay sounds fine for this catagory.




Ear-lobes: Enamel white (or white). (BPS considers it as opaque, white or cream, slight pink markings OK. Here I believe it is a one color only description, with the other possible option being white. Leghorns, minorcas, blue andalusions, buff catalanas are enamel white; Sicilian buttercups are white). Redchicken9: the enamel-white has a satin white surface color, hmm. Going with yes here. Babymakes6: Keep it simple-I like white. [GaryDean26] - I have seen some cockerels with some red showing through, but don't like that look. It doesn't look neat or clean. Lets breed to the Enamel White with out any red showing through. This is an area that is showing defects in the GFF flock, but not a big problem as most seem to be as shown above. This wording will work great.


Crest: Cream and gray barred, (BPS some chestnut permissible). Redchicken9: Photo below is of a small crest, so it's hard to define how much is a true crest. I'd describe some of it like the pale straw barred with bright gold brown, another feather or two appears grey and cream. I think it needs to be described as barred, so I'm adding that in. Not certain if I need to add in irregular barring (see below). Babymakes6: I like this description, and I agree too, that "barred" needs to be added. [GaryDean26] - I am seeing a lot of chestnut barred crest with gray at the base. It seems the larger the crest the more visible chestnut. This is an area that I don't know enough about yet so including the chestnut permissible seem the best in the proposal for this catagory.





Head (added): Hackle cream with infrequent, irregular barring. Redchicken9: as below. [GaryDean26] - yep, that is what we are aiming for.

Neck: Hackle cream with infrequent, irregular barring. (BPS: sparsely barred. From my just learned knowledge, regular barring is the black and white transverse pattern of the barred Plymouth Rocks. Irregular is seen in Dominiques, Hollands, Campines (V shaped), and Cuckoo Belgain Bearded d’Anvers Bantams. Dominiques and Barred Hollands are described as irregular, dark and light barred, stopping short of positive black and white. Ours are grey and cream. Here I don’t find another bird with barring and cream. Aside: CL barring is also due to dominate sex-linked factors like Barred Rocks, Dominiques, and Cuckoo groups). Redchicken9: Yes on the description, however my bird shows the colors of rust and lemon are specked in with the grey. The gold legbar neck hackles are pale straw, sparsely barred with gold and black. Would it seem to anyone that the gold legbar hackle description fits? Babymakes6: something to work towards, then? [GaryDean26] wording sounds good here.








Back and Shoulders: Cream and dark grey irregular barring. (Here I don’t know whether to add in more. BPS: Some chestnut permissible. I haven’t yet seen in the ASP where a color leakage is mentioned on any other bird. I suspect, it’s like ear-lobes, ASP prefers a crisp color description. Here, those that know more, please comment).
Redchicken9: Yes. OK. May have more than some chestnut, but definitely have chestnut. Babymakes6: Yes. I think we have more than enough chestnut. I like the bright color against the grey and cream, but I will be working towards a little less chestnut. [GaryDean26] - Hmm, even the good examples of cream colored cockeresl as showing some chestnut. I don't know what the ASP requires, but again think that for the proposal that the some chestnut permissable should be part of the description untill we learn more about the breed.

he

Saddle: Hackles cream barred with dark grey edged with cream. Redchicken9: Here, like with the neck hackles, my saddle hackles once again match the description of the gold legbar, which is pale straw barred with bright gold-brown, as far as possible from black. Babymakes6: I agree, this rooster doesn't seem to have "dark grey." [GaryDean26] Dark gray Edges? I agree with others that the gray with cream edges isn't required for this catagory.


(Update below)Tail: Evenly barred grey. Sickles are lighter barred to white. (Here again there is a color range in the sickles, which I’m OK with, but need to research if this is done in any other breeds). Redchicken9: Yes. Babymakes6: Yes [GaryDean26] - Both of my 9 month old cockerels just started to get mostly white sickles (didn't show up untill 8-1/2 months) - Ice was also mention to have mostly white sickles. My 11 month old cockerel I bred this year doesn't have any feathers that have a lot of white on them. His sickels are still all an evenly barred gray. The Basque Hens which are a barred breed have completely white sickels down as a DQ although mostly white sickles are permitted. I think that evenly barred gray sickles to mostly white sickles should be permited, and completly white sickles a DQ.

Tail: Main tail: Evenly barred grey.

Main and Lesser Sickles: Lighter barred to white. [GaryDean26] - again I think that some color should be required on the lesser sickles. Mostly white = Ok, All white = DQ.




Wings: (Updated language below)

Coverts: Grey barred, tipped in cream. (BPS says some chestnut permissible, once again is there a bird in ASP with color leakage? We need a reference or guideline on how to describe this and/or permit, if desirable). Redchicken9: Mine may not be fully tipped in cream. Babymakes6: yes [GaryDean26] - Okay I am seeing that the "chestnut permissable: is something that we need direction on. I don't think that chestnut should be a DQ, No chestnut can be the aim, but not the requirement (in my opinion).
Primaries: Dark grey, faintly barred. Some white permissible. (Here again does the ASP style allow). Redchicken9: Primaries are dark. Babymakes6: yes [GaryDean26] - yep, this sound good. Again any all white feathers in the Primaries should be discouraged (in my opinion).
Secondaries: Dark grey, more clearly marked (as comment above). Redchicken9: here I have some color. Babymakes6: yes

Wings: Bows : Dark grey, faintly barred. Some white permissible.

Coverts: Grey barred, tipped in cream, some chestnut permissible.

Primaries: Dark grey, faintly barred. Some white permissible.

Secondaries: Dark grey, more clearly barred.

Body and Fluff: Body: (Not denoted in BPS, this part SOP describes as the color exclusive of back and breast; specifically lower sides of body, abdomen and stern). [GaryDean26] - I think that grey fluff that is faintly barred would work here

Fluff: (SOP indicates a need for color here, referring to the soft downy feathering on the inner side of the lower thighs and on the abdomen).

Breast: Irregular dark grey and cream barring, defined in outline. Redchicken9: Yes for description. More or less for my males. Babymakes6: yes
[GaryDean26] - Cream Barring on the Breast? I have seen some color on the breast, but assumed that was from the Autosomal red/Chestnut genes. I am not sure what cream the breast is suposed to have.

Legs and Toes: Yellow. Redchicken9: Yes. Babymakes6: yes [GaryDean26] Yes - Note: I have seen some willow and some white sades of yellow in the CLB stock in the USA. I don't think that the leg color is any type of problem, but may be an area to watch.

Undercolor of All Sections: (BPS lacks description; SOP states it’s the color of the lower or fluff portion of feathers, not visible when the feathers are in natural position). [GaryDean26] What colors are the brown Leghorns and Plumouth rocks? White? Grey? I think that what is the color we have, but still truggling to find good examples of anything by white (in chickens in general, not just CLBs).

Please all look, I edited and I think it is now more complete. Please help in this process by providing review and comments. It is critical that we know this breed/ variety and its color. Next post, my thoughts on this.

I believe the photo above is from the breast.

Fluff: (SOP indicates a need for color here, referring to the soft downy feathering on the inner side of the lower thighs and on the abdomen). Redchicken9: I think this is barred light and dark grey, I just don't know if it would be cream and grey on a more cream, cream legbar.



Body: (Not denoted in BPS, this part SOP describes as the color exclusive of back and breast; specifically lower sides of body, abdomen and stern). Redchicken9: Barred light and dark grey. Again my bird may not be the bird to look at.



Undercolor of All Sections: (BPS lacks description; SOP states it’s the color of the lower or fluff portion of feathers, not visible when the feathers are in natural position). Redchicken9: light grey to white? [GaryDean26] -I am not realy good with fluff colors I also want to know if the light down colored cockerels have any different fluff than the dark down colored cockerels do. (I will loook at my guys, but they are all dark down colored witht eh exception of one that was a mix of dark and a brown shade of down-



Ok, thanks let me know what you see here and on your own for these sections.