Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[tadkerson]

the other day you avoided me on a genetic debate, hoping you bite now..

a simple question will answer your question... why do Dutch bantam breeders try to avoid crossing a light brown with their beloved Silver duck wing Dutch stock?

1. The British standard indicates that chestnut can be found in the shoulders- the standard does not indicate it is a fault. If chestnut shoulders was a problem, I believe the British fanciers would have removed such from the bird's phenotype a long time ago.

So, if the APA standard indicates only cream can be found on the shoulders- then the breeders have a lot of work to do and may have to out cross to eliminate the chestnut shoulders. And then do a whole lot of crossing. A silver leghorn may work for this, but also think about this- with out the autosomal red- how much cream will show in the birds. Between the barring and the cream gene- it may be a very white bird.

2. I discussed the cream legbar with individuals that were concerned about some of the birds faults. No one indicated to me that they believed non-cream shoulder color was a problem.

3. You believe that non-cream shoulder color is a problem- I have never assumed that, especially when no one has asked me about how to solve the problem. Therefore I did not approach the problem as such.

4. I still stand by my suggestion to use light brown leghorns to improve the problems I discussed with individuals that sent me a PM. Marvin- you were not part of the discussion so you have no idea about what we discussed, Why are you making suggestions that are not germane to the topics I discussed with the members?

5. This is not a debate- I am simple trying to explain my choice to solve problems expressed with in private messages I have had with members. They do not need the head ache of making additional crosses for a problem that they never wished to see eliminated.

6. I never avoided a genetic debate with you- I did not have the time to write a rebuttal and felt that my answer would have been a bit harsh. When I debate, I go for the jugular and did not want to do that to you.

Lets just keep the forum open to ideas not for debating.

Tim

 

[ChicKat]

1. The British standard indicates that chestnut can be found in the shoulders- the standard does not indicate it is a fault. If chestnut shoulders was a problem, I believe the British fanciers would have removed such from the bird's phenotype a long time ago.

So, if the APA standard indicates only cream can be found on the shoulders- then the breeders have a lot of work to do and may have to out cross to eliminate the chestnut shoulders. And then do a whole lot of crossing. A silver leghorn may work for this, but also think about this- with out the autosomal red- how much cream will show in the birds. Between the barring and the cream gene- it may be a very white bird.

2. I discussed the cream legbar with individuals that were concerned about some of the birds faults. No one indicated to me that they believed non-cream shoulder color was a problem.

3. You believe that non-cream shoulder color is a problem- I have never assumed that, especially when no one has asked me about how to solve the problem. Therefore I did not approach the problem as such.

4. I still stand by my suggestion to use light brown leghorns to improve the problems I discussed with individuals that sent me a PM. Marvin- you were not part of the discussion so you have no idea about what we discussed, Why are you making suggestions that are not germane to the topics I discussed with the members?

5. This is not a debate- I am simple trying to explain my choice to solve problems expressed with in private messages I have had with members. They do not need the head ache of making additional crosses for a problem that they never wished to see eliminated.

6. I never avoided a genetic debate with you- I did not have the time to write a rebuttal and felt that my answer would have been a bit harsh. When I debate, I go for the jugular and did not want to do that to you.

Lets just keep the forum open to ideas not for debating.

Tim

Hi Tim & Marvin,

Thanks for your genetic insights. If memory serves the male and female crest UK SOP also says 'some chestnut permissible' just like the wings.

This conversation makes me wonder if the UK birds that appear so much lighter and even more 'silver' than the USA birds...(which make me wonder if they would show cream if a test pairing with a silver hen were to occur) - are the result of out cross to silver leghorn. Then as a result lost the cream as Tim had suggested could happen.

This may be very central to the USA -- I don't want to say 'confusion' -- less than that -- about the ideal coloration.

Your help is so valuable -- and as we are just getting started in the USA with this breed, and for some cream and the correct Cream Legbar is elusive...the process will continue.

Some USA owners are very interested in keeping some chestnut - and some I believe think that the UK silver type bird is the direction they want to follow. ---

I'm hoping that this spring we can do some 'test pairings' with a CL cockerel and a silver hen - -and perhaps get more insight to the cream genetics of our colorful rooster. (would love to see someone in the UK do the same with a very light cockerel to see if there truly is cream there.)

Thanks!

 

[KPenley]

A couple of random thoughts/questions after reading all of the great material above by the geneticists and blackbirds...
There are more than a few of us concerned with the red shoulder. Especially the extremely dark concentrated ones when "some chestnut permissible" is in the original SOP. What color is chestnut? I thought it was the darker reddish brown that shows up sparingly in the wings. Is the brighter autosomal red also called chestnut? TIA!

 

[nicalandia]

There are more than a few of us concerned with the red shoulder. Especially the extremely dark concentrated ones

Here you go Tim.. one of Many concerned breeders.

 

[tadkerson]

A couple of random thoughts/questions after reading all of the great material above by the geneticists and blackbirds...
There are more than a few of us concerned with the red shoulder. Especially the extremely dark concentrated ones when "some chestnut permissible" is in the original SOP. What color is chestnut? I thought it was the darker reddish brown that shows up sparingly in the wings. Is the brighter autosomal red also called chestnut? TIA!

Lets lump chestnut and any red like color into one category- red. I believe, the red on the shoulders and back of a cream leg bar is due to autosomal red.

If a person compares a silver leghorn with a light brown leghorn, the main difference is red vs white in the plumage. The silver leghorn male has two sex linked alleles (genes) called silver that adds the white to the pyle zone of the bird. The male light brown leghorn has two alleles called gold that adds the red to his pyle zone. If the color difference between these two varieties is determined only by the gold and silver alleles, then if a person crossed a silver male with a gold female and then back crossed the male offspring with a silver female; some of the male offspring will be purebred for silver (have two silver alleles) and should have the same phenotype as ( will look like) the parent silver leghorn rooster. This is usually not the case because the homozygous silver male offspring normally have some shade of red in the shoulders; the color is variable. If the males have two alleles for silver, then some genetic or epigenetic factor is causing the red shoulder color. Researchers have not thoroughly investigated red color on silver birds- they called it autosomal red because it is a red color not caused by the sex linked gold allele. In a general sense, genes (alleles) are sex linked or the genes are autosomal. The gene or genes that add the red color to the silver male are not sex linked therefore they are autosomal.

The two cream genes found in the cream leg bar have very little effect upon the autosomal red found in the shoulders and backs of the cream legbar. From my experience with autosomal red, the red color can vary and depends upon the genetic make up of the male.. Some males have bright red and others have the darker brownish red called chestnut.

The cream gene has been isolated from silver birds. The cream gene is quirky and acts differently on birds with different genetic back grounds. The cream gene can produce nice cream colored birds or birds that look like they are a silver or a brassy silver phenotype.

Getting rid of the autosomal red and in combination with the effects of the barring may produce a male bird that is white on the dorsal side. A person may say good by to the cream color.

I say this because no one knows exactly how autosomal red effects the gold allele found in the cream legbars. It may enhance the gold or it may have no effect what so ever upon the expression by the gold allele. If the autosomal red enhances the expression of red by the gold allele, then the cream genes are diluting a darker red color to cream. If the autosomal red is removed then the cream genes may dilute the red to a very pale red color or even a brassy white which combined with the barring would produce a white color.

Tim

 

[robnorman24]

I now have my legbar hens laying. Both of my roos have perfectly straight combs. These chickens have been a fun project. Looking forward to what the future holds!

 

[KPenley]

I now have my legbar hens laying. Both of my roos have perfectly straight combs. These chickens have been a fun project. Looking forward to what the future holds!

Congrats! Pics?

 

[robnorman24]

I can't figure out how to post them. They are on my profile page but I can't load them on here.

 

[tadkerson]

I can't figure out how to post them. They are on my profile page but I can't load them on here.

Right click on the image you want to post. Then pick copy the image. Then right click and paste the image into your post. You will have to right click and past the image into a box that pops up. Then click ok. That is one way.

If you want to load multiple pictures, have your pictures open in one browser widow and the string open in another browser window. Copy and paste between the two browsers.

Tim

 

[blackbirds13]

I had asked a question earlier on one of the CL threads regarding the gold color that is in the secondary feathers. You can see it in the wing bay of most American Cream Legbars. In my reading of Punnett's Cream Plummage paper and other articles that spoke on Cream and Autosomal Red I assumed the shoulder color was separate from the gold gene (not great with the technical jargon) and in the cream article Punnett says that the gold showing up in those feathers is an indicator of the presence of gold and separate from the chestnut in the shoulders...well that's how I read it. I then assumed from the other readings on Autosomal Red and this cream gene (which seems to have a lot of questions left) that cream in the presence of Autosomal Red would indeed dull it's effect. I then assumed that the British birds are the result of very selective breeding and not entirely true to the wording on their own SOP so I have not really been looking to the shoulders for an elimination of the red but more of a lessened visual effect. Rather I have been using the color variation in the secondary feathers to indicate the degree of gold in my males. So far it has proven out but my boys are still young.

These are just my own musings and may be completely off base with all my assuming but I do have questions about this in my mind that I want to investigate. I'm interested in these ideas, I think it's great to throw around ideas philosophically and with open-minded conjecture even though I really am more interested in breeding and finding out for myself.