Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[faykokoWV]

Steen - was that questionnaire sent via email or snail mail? I don't recall ever getting one

 

[ChicKat]

Steen - was that questionnaire sent via email or snail mail? I don't recall ever getting one

Hi FaykokoWV,

The Cream Legbar Club has a survey going on. It is kind of general, only 9-questions, if memory serves. IT was linked to in an email to club members. Objective is to get a report card on how the Club is meeting member's needs - have members prioritize the Club activity AND....most important of all have members sound off -- about what they want from the Club.

IT will automatically close July 31st. We have some good ideas and responses - thanks everyone who has answered. Members who haven't yet-- please do the survey -- the more participation - the more the club will represent everyone's needs.

Steen - your idea is so good -- it would really be wise for the club to poll what people's birds look like. I'm wondering how they will shape up in future.

BTW, I just saw a draft of the Quarterly Newsletter - and it knocked my socks off -- so much really good information in there -- it's like a book. --

ETA--> you know who you are -- awesome job for all of you who wrote/write for the newsletter.

ETA again - if you lost or didn't get that email - we will need to send a tickler out before the survey closes itself -- if you need a link now -- PM me.

ETA - tying the survey to the newsletter - our newsletter EDITOR, normanck is psycic - and one of the mentions in the survey is that we need more pictures, more descriptive pictures of what's "right" etc. for CLs. We are still "under construction" with the finest of the fine points of the breed and the SOP --(well sort of) - but the newsletter has a wealth of material....

 

[ChicKat]

This 'shafting' business has my new-chicken-mom head swirling. Are we saying shafting is acceptable?
I have 3 CLs about 3 1/2 mos old, and to me, they're beautiful. The light stripe in their feathers really set off the breed from my others.
Perhaps, I've only got backyard flock quality instead of showgirls--what age can I expect to know how they will really look?

Pginsber -

YEP -- that breast on the left is what a CL looks like to me.

Your pullets are really pretty. I love how they look so curious and alert. I agree with KPenley that along with a lot of the rest of us the neck hackles will need to be bred for nice cream barring -- and I LOVE that type of crest. This age, in your pict. are after they passed through the "punk rocker" stage and just before they enter the beautiful lady stage. They are kind of still having that teen age awkwardness...but you can see the promise of what beautiful hens they will grow into. Thanks for posting.

I really think, that when the standard gets revised next time -- shafting needs a mention in there - or we aren't really talking about the real birds in the standard. JMO.

 

[KPenley]

Special note to everyone who wanted to know the history and breeds that came together to form our Cream Legbar...it's in the upcoming newsletter!!!

 

[blackbirds13]

So I went out to look at this shafting. I really had not thought about it before in detail and needed to see how it was reflected in my birds in their plumage, the hackle and chest. I took photos today

cream girl with little autosomal red




this is a cream girl with some autosomal red and a gold girl





and a few more. I can see the shafting on the breast and on the body and in the hackle, pretty much all over.






this chick is about 7 weeks old

 

[dretd]

Quote: I am so glad this topic was brought up by FaykokoWV, because I thought the same thing when I saw the shafting brought up on CSU. Every Welsummer I have personally seen (in fact the drawing by the Dutch National Club referenced on feathersite clearly shows shafting on the hen) has some shafting so that means that a majority of that breed may not meet breed standards. Is that because the American SOP is based on the Dutch and they did not mention shafting because it is not required to do so in their standard?

I did a Google search of UK Cream Legbar breeders/websites and I see shafting in many probably a majority of those hens--some with lacing. I would post pictures but I am sure they must be copyrighted somehow--though that gets into another can of worms since its a foreign website and they probably have not copyrighted them in the US, but I digress.

I am wondering if there is a 'lost in translation' thing going on where British judges don't take off for things not specifically mentioned in the breed standard but are commonly seen such as the shafting whereas American judges do? Perhaps insight from a British judge is needed. Since we are essentially porting a British chicken breed and accompanying standard into a new system, it is important that we understand what was important/a problem to them and how that will be interpreted by the judges here. We may need to address the work-in-progress breed standard to somehow state shafting is ok. Not 'has to have it' or 'should not have it' but rather 'breast is salmon, some shafting acceptable' just like the crest says 'cream and grey, some chestnut acceptable'.

Now the other thing is, as I understand it, this is something the hen will be counted down for but its not a DQ or major defect. They will still be Cream Legbars its just that they are not perfect examples of the breed. I hope a judge can respond and tell us if this is accurate statement or not.

So in that respect if 90% of the hens have it in a show, then all of those will be equally penalized and it may not matter when judging them against each other. The main problem is that if 90% of hens have the shafting and it is clearly in the British Legbar stock, then in my mind it should be acceptable for the hens to have it and they should not be downgraded for that shafting. Now the question is, if everyone agrees, how do we adjust the Standard to reflect that?

pginsber--I think your pullets are very nice!

 

[faykokoWV]

true it is just a deduction, and if competing against other birds of the same breed it won't matter, but if competing for best in class/show it will make it harder to win

 

[KPenley]

Shafting carries a 1/2 to 1 1/2 point deduction per section, so yeah we're not talking about a lot of points here. But as faykoko and others have learned on the CSU thread, it's costing both class and show champion titles. We've been encouraged to look at show winners and the best birds we can find personally, and to base our changes to the SOP on them, and not current faulty stock (I am in no way saying that all of our stock is faulty or impossible to improve, as I have seen VAST improvement in just one year, just that most photos available currently are not the best examples of Cream Legbars out there).
I remember one of the judges writing on CSU something to the effect that he'd love to have every detail written down of every bird in the APA SOP, but that it would make it twice as long and then the judges would never have a chance to memorize them all! A lot of things, like lacing, are going to be up to the eye and opinion of the judge unless we define them before. Luckily for us, we have a minimum of two years of serious showing before we send in our application that can hopefully iron some of those detail out.

 

[ChicKat]

dretd
This is exactly the point. Let's say that 90% of the USA birds have shafting - and most if not all the UK birds have it. It isn't subtracted for there in our scenario. If that proves to be the case, then the work-in-progress SOP - would need to be adjusted to reflect it...as you said...something like visible feather shafts are permissible or something...not saying required - if (and I have yet to see any birds without them--- except maybe baby chicks)---- what we all seem to be finding now that we look is that the central vein of all the feathers on the breast, many of the back feathers and some hackles shows a cream shaft very visibly.

Someone, long ago in this thread said that people needed to be careful NOT to craft a SOP that doesn't reflect the birds...but some imaginary bird. Standard of perfection will never be achieved by it's vary nature, but it should be achievable for Cream Legbar Breeders. So if we leave shafting out -- and 98% of all Cream Legbars HAVE it... we aren't really writing a SOP for Cream Legbars IMO.

Since the SOP is in draft form -- this is EXACTLY the type of thing that is something that can be revised and improved upon before it is presented to the APA for application to accept the breed. That's part of the reason that it was needed now, at this time, so that people can have exactly this type of discussion and determine what is the true "perfection" for this bird.... thinking in my mind that doesn't mean what would be the imagined perfection. I'm glad too that FaykokoWV alerted us to this. Also glad that it is getting close scrutiny.

 

[BGMatt]

Most breeds I'd wager 90% or so of the animals out there do not meet the standard. Also remember its only been a couple years that y'all have had these. You need to decide if any shafting is permissible, but not just make it permissible simply because the majority of birds have it. It is called the Standard of Perfection after all.