Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[BGMatt]

I too have heard the theory that the autosomal red is linked to the salmon chest on the females, but I have heard people arguing against that as well.  So I'm not sure what the right answer is.  I think as long as we are watching for BALANCE- i.e. not silver looking but not very chestnut- we will be fine.  I like it how we have it worded, "some chestnut permissible."

I don't know that I buy autosomal red (the dark red/chestnut on wing) is needed for salmon, but I do believe that gold/straw whatever you call it might be.

 

[3riverschick]

Quote: Brian Reeder is writing a 4 part series including that subject in bold above for the free online magazine "Exhibition Poultry".
http://www.exhibitionpoultry.net/4-7 pdf.pdf If this doesn't open go in thru this URL to the July 2013 issue:
http://www.exhibitionpoultry.net/
Part 3 is out this month and I think will answer a lot of your questions. It sure did for me!
Best,
Karen in western PA, USA

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Brian Reeder is writing a 4 part series including that subject in bold above for the free online magazine "Exhibition Poultry".
http://www.exhibitionpoultry.net/4-7 pdf.pdf If this doesn't open go in thru this URL to the July 2013 issue:
http://www.exhibitionpoultry.net/
Part 3 is out this month and I think will answer a lot of your questions. It sure did for me!
Best,
Karen in western PA, USA

Awesome, wow that is way over my head. I am bookmarking it to look at a piece at a time!

 

[blackbirds13]

this is something I find REALLY incredible.

http://www.thepoultrygarden.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=15999

August 2012, someone asks in the UK Poultry garden which rooster to keep. A person named Wilt suggests that her samples are lacking the chestnut - and although too much autosomal red isn't good - too pale a cockerel isn't either -- as I understand him. The reason is the females from a pale cockerel do not have the salmon colored breast - it is a faded color as we have seen in some of the UK birds.


Re: Cream Legbars - which one?

by Wilt » August 3rd, 2012, 2:21 pm
This might be the sort of cock colour we should be looking for?

But not this!!!!

Middle bird - the ideal top and bottom birds = top too light, bottom too dark. Now although the middle bird is spooky with the red-eyes, I think it looks a lot like a lot of the USA birds. The woman who started the post said something about a Facebook breeder's group talking about a paler bird - and Wilt says:

Re: Cream Legbars - which one?

by Wilt » August 3rd, 2012, 4:02 pm
If the breeder group had the views of Jilly Potter or Henwife, or someone who had been breeding them for any length of time then it would be a worth while exercise. I don't know how long this Facebook breeder group has been going, but I would sooner talk and listen to the two ladies I have mentioned, who have been breeding and persevering with the breed for a good bit more than four or so years. Setting up a breeding group does not make it gospel I'm afraid. If it does the breed a service that's all well and good, but it appears to be about excluding people who have been breeding them for a long time. Before the cotswold legbar came to ruin it. When egg and bird size were the main problems. But including people who don't breed them.
After looking at the referenced Facebook breeder's group-- Wilt goes on to say:






I recognize these photos because I posted something similar last October 6, 2012



https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/713115/cream-legbar-working-group-standard-of-perfection/180

Quote: The rooster in the top photo was described as "As colorful as you would like" so not necessarily ideal but advising that he may still be suitable but you would not want to use anything more colorful than this, so somewhere between him and the really pale rooster would be more ideal.
Emily de Gray is in the breeders page and I for one am not willing to doubt her breeder experience, advice or knowledge and I am not sure she or Jill espouse about really pale birds.
I feel that no matter what is said the genes will in the end denote what is possible. I am a big fan of test breeding any bird at this early point in the breed here in America. Even if a track I take proves unfruitful for creating a better Cream Legbar there is knowledge to be garnered from the journey and with my original gold bird that is soooo true but the same is said with her original mate with opposingly positive results.
I think in breeding these birds that the cream gene expresses itself inconsistently dependent upon the level of autosomal red but that is something I am still looking at in my own pens. I look to the secondaries and saddle for signs of gold and the shoulders for chestnut levels.. I have also found that the saddle does lighten itself over time. Hens have only one copy of cream is what I got from Niclandia early on in this discussion so I am assuming that the level of autosomal red has an affect on the tone of the that expression as I have some really cream hackled birds with more red at the throat and breast and my really pale cream birds with pale breast and clean throat areas. So you can have a slightly colorful rooster mated to a cream hen and get a nicely colored cream rooster with the right genetic pairings. The hackle and saddle color is not the same genetic color as the shoulder is where the discussion was heading I believe. My grasp of the correct scientific language is not great but it is interesting to see these topics pop up over and over again and the different levels of discussion that arise each time. I hatched a lot of chicks recently due to my situation and have gotten a good number of nice cream colored pullets and a fair amount of gold ones but not as many as i was expecting so I have a few thoughts bubbling up in my head I cannot put words to yet. I am rethinking my pens and rethinking my pens given the discussion topics here and what I see in my own birds. I am thinking of what Steen posted (on another thread) regarding brother to sister matings, adding outside stock for mating and then line breeding. I think I have enough pen space to try that next year I think. In regards to the dark down we had a discussion much earlier on about the tone of the down and if I remember correctly there was discussion on the dark being single barred but perhaps still cream due to the tone being more gray but I am not remembering if there was any resolution.

Sorry for the long post but I've been doing a lot of looking at my chicks and pens and have a lot of thoughts percolating in my head. I need a get-away vacation to give me a mental and visual break.

 

[blackbirds13]

Quote: I've printed this out and will read with coffee this morning. Good post.

 

[CibolaChooks]

I recognize these photos because I posted something similar last October 6, 2012



https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/713115/cream-legbar-working-group-standard-of-perfection/180

The rooster in the top photo was described as "As colorful as you would like" so not necessarily ideal but advising that he may still be suitable but you would not want to use anything more colorful than this, so somewhere between him and the really pale rooster would be more ideal.
Emily de Gray is in the breeders page and I for one am not willing to doubt her breeder experience, advice or knowledge and I am not sure she or Jill espouse about really pale birds.
I feel that no matter what is said the genes will in the end denote what is possible. I am a big fan of test breeding any bird at this early point in the breed here in America. Even if a track I take proves unfruitful for creating a better Cream Legbar there is knowledge to be garnered from the journey and with my original gold bird that is soooo true but the same is said with her original mate with opposingly positive results.
I think in breeding these birds that the cream gene expresses itself inconsistently dependent upon the level of autosomal red but that is something I am still looking at in my own pens. I look to the secondaries and saddle for signs of gold and the shoulders for chestnut levels.. I have also found that the saddle does lighten itself over time. Hens have only one copy of cream is what I got from Niclandia early on in this discussion so I am assuming that the level of autosomal red has an affect on the tone of the that expression as I have some really cream hackled birds with more red at the throat and breast and my really pale cream birds with pale breast and clean throat areas. So you can have a slightly colorful rooster mated to a cream hen and get a nicely colored cream rooster with the right genetic pairings. The hackle and saddle color is not the same genetic color as the shoulder is where the discussion was heading I believe. My grasp of the correct scientific language is not great but it is interesting to see these topics pop up over and over again and the different levels of discussion that arise each time. I hatched a lot of chicks recently due to my situation and have gotten a good number of nice cream colored pullets and a fair amount of gold ones but not as many as i was expecting so I have a few thoughts bubbling up in my head I cannot put words to yet. I am rethinking my pens and rethinking my pens given the discussion topics here and what I see in my own birds. I am thinking of what Steen posted (on another thread) regarding brother to sister matings, adding outside stock for mating and then line breeding. I think I have enough pen space to try that next year I think. In regards to the dark down we had a discussion much earlier on about the tone of the down and if I remember correctly there was discussion on the dark being single barred but perhaps still cream due to the tone being more gray but I am not remembering if there was any resolution.

Sorry for the long post but I've been doing a lot of looking at my chicks and pens and have a lot of thoughts percolating in my head. I need a get-away vacation to give me a mental and visual break.

here is my dark down roo. id say he is cream and in between these two. some chestnut on his wings and also a small bit of light yellow in the barring on the saddle hackles.

 

[CibolaChooks]

Ive had some luck with my change in parings. these are my 3 cream males. The one i like the best came from a cream hen but i do believe his brother is a autosomal red.

1st cream Roo.







2nd cream roo.





the 3rd cream roo was said to be my best prospect about 3 weeks ago. Ive now noticed his barring looks different and he has a double point on one of his points.

 

[CibolaChooks]

here is another weird black and white barring one. I need to get a pic of the other black brested pullets. her breast feathers are changing now to salmon color. but here is the new one and my first crested pullet this year.

 

[normanack]

I don't know how a judge reads it, but I'm wondering if "some chestnut permissible" has the implication that a little chestnut is tolerable though not desirable. In other words, with two otherwise identical roosters, would the one with "some chestnut" be judged lower than one without any chestnut?

Or maybe I'm reading way, way too much into this.

 

[KPenley]

Looks like three beautiful boys. Are #2 and #3 from the same pairing as #1? They almost look like they're missing a dose of barring. I wouldn't do a final evaluation until they're all filled in. Watch that little crested pullet! She has some very promising grey/cream barring in her crest already! Beautiful birds!