Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[ChicKat]

Could everyone please pause for a moment? I love the excitement. I love the fact that so many people are writing in every day. But I'm hearing a lot of things like double breeding necessary...mistakes and omissions being made in the UK SOP...unachievable SOP...and these are just not true.

The Poultry Club of Great Britain does write their Standard differently than ours, so ours will be a bit different. And we may have to add things that they don't just because we know that it will help us not lose points for no reason. But wasn't the Standard was passed when Punnett was President of the Poultry Club? He may have even written it. Do you really think that a guy who created a breed to make farmers lives easier would make a double breeding/unrealistic/impossible to meet standard? He approved it. He and Pease showed their own birds. Punnett got the Cream Legbar accepted.

If a breed exists and is imported here to America, we have to write our standard to reflect the original (as per the APA). We are not the creator.

ok...

Hey there KPenley,

Please don't be sensitive about the USA existing SOP. It must be looked at as a work-in-progress and not as a done deal.

If these issues had truly been resolved last year, then they wouldn't be coming up.

Our UK counterparts are not totally problem free with their Cream Legbars. Somehow some other (non-Punnett) things have gotten into the UK SOP for Cream Legbars. e.g. Punnett's original SOP --- only had blue eggs, the present UK one has blue,green and olive. In the USA since we had no olive, we omitted olive egg. There are other things in the UK standard that are, perhaps slightly different from Punnett's original bird. I think people have to ask themselves if we want to try to replicate the Punnett bird, and discard the additions, such as olive eggs, that have somehow crept into the UK standard.

The UK is not totally problem free in Cream Legbars.

I would like to remind all of us of this quote directly from Punnett:

" It may be described as a Brown Leghorn on a cream basis, to which has been added the barring factor to make it autosexing. It is also crested and lays a blue egg." R.C. Punnett 1957

Punnett's original stock may be lost -- although I thought that there was a person over there who did have some descendents from the originals. Perhaps the excitement is more positive than you are interpreting it. This work-in-progress draft SOP gives the USA a chance to not only reflect the reality of USA birds (such as no olive eggs) but also reflect based on Punnett's original description and what is here (back to no olive eggs) the quality of birds that are in the USA:

 

[ChicKat]

I have read with interest all the posts regarding the potential for needing double breeding. What I am picking out is that the male needs some chestnut in the shoulders to sire correctly colored females. If I have gotten this right, shouldn't that be the way the standard is written? I am a newcomer to this breed, all I have at this time is a trio of chicks and some eggs being incubated, so I have not produced anything yet. As the chicks mature and I can gauge what I have, it will be helpful to know not only whether I have birds of correct (or at least in the right direction) type, but whether the "paint" is workable. I agree with all who remind of the priority of type, and that seems to be pretty well agreed upon. The color thus becomes front and center of the discussion. Developing a Standard for a breed new to the US is a task not taken lightly, and I deeply appreciate the attention paid to details that may make or break acceptance and popularity.

Breeding true means having birds that can reproduce themselves. A male with chestnut shoulders can produce a female with a salmon breast. From what I am reading, a male with no chestnut in the shoulders cannot. I have not seen anything that contradicts this, but maybe someone here has proof the male with no chestnut in the shoulder can produce a female with a salmon breast.

Crests - stated to be cream and silver - doesn't this mean the dark crested birds are less correct?

Shafting - hoo boy. Seems to me it is again a question of whether it is possible, genetically, to have all other aspects of color correct and still eliminate shafting. This does not mean a picture shows it, it means someone has done it, repeatedly. The notion of interviewing a UK judge is very important, and I would add that interviewing several breeders from the UK may prove fruitful. If it can't be done, put "some shafting" in the standard. Leave out "acceptable", so as to simplify it for judges to interpret. Their job is hard enough, especially with a new breed. I know "some" is subjective, but it allows a judge to move forward a pullet or hen with shafting.

Just the thoughts and questions of a person only just delving into the breed. I must say I am greatly enjoying the depth of the discussion here

Hi Pozees

So glad that you weighed in with your insights!! Also glad that you are getting into Cream Legbars.

For my purposes, I am using the Brit. SOP that came from Punnett's day. Notably it doesn't say silver and cream in the crest....but gray. And although silver to my mind often brings the image of sterling silver -- in the bird world it means white --right?

Here is a cut and paste from my very own website: :O)

hat exactly IS a Cream Legbar?

Although you can find this verbage with an internet search, it is reproduced here for your convenience. Is it possible that the 'original' cream legbars have all disappeared? Are our current birds not 'up to standard'? There is much discussion in some quarters. Interesting too, how the UK standards have added the inclusion of olive and green eggs, whereas the original bird was described as laying blue eggs. As this breed is developed in the USA it will be interesting to track the changes to see what exactly the Cream Legbar in the USA has become by the year 2017; which would be the earliest that application could be made to the American Poultry Association for recognition in the USA.

Below is the original standard submitted to The Poultry Club of Great Britain via the Autosexing Breeds Association - which was founded in 1943, and who's president was Professor R. C. Punnett F.R.S. Punnett, along with Michael Pease devloped the Cream Legbar.

This Standard was adopted by The Poultry Club May 1958

Cream Legbar
STANDARD 1958

Light breed, nonsitter

THE COCK:

HEAD- Crested; beak stout; eyes prominent; comb single, straight and erect, evenly and deeply serrated, large but not overgrown, extending beyond the back of the head, free from side sprigs; earlobes well developed, pendant, smooth, and open; wattles long and thin.
NECK: Long, well covered with hackle feathers
BODY: Wedge shaped, prominent breast, and straight breast bone, long flat back, sloping slightly to the tail; wings well tucked up and tightly carried.
LEGS: Moderately long; shanks strong and free from feathers.
CARRIAGE: Sprightly and alert, but free from stiltiness.
WEIGHT: 6 to 6-1/2 lbs in cockerels; 7 to 7-1/2 lbs in cocks.

THE HEN:

General characteristics similar to those of the cock, allowing for sexual differences.
WEIGHT: 4-1/2 to 5 lbs in pullets; 5 to 6 lbs in hens.

C O L O U R

THE COCK:

Neck hackles -- Cream, sparsely barred.
Saddle Hackles -- Cream, barred with dark grey, tipped with cream.
Back & Shoulders -- Cream, with dark grey barring, some chestnut permissible.
Wing Primaries -- Dark grey, faintly barred, some white permissible.
Wing Secondaries -- Dark grey more clearly marked.
Wing Coverts -- Grey barred, tips cream, some chestnut smudges permissible.
Breast -- Evenly barred dark grey, well defined outline.
Tail -- Evenly barred grey, sickles being paler, some white feathers permissible.
Crest -- Cream and grey, some chestnut permissible.
Beak -- Yellow.
Eyes -- Red or orange.
Comb, Face, & Wattles -- Red.
Earlobes -- Pure opaque white or cream, slight pink markings not unduly to handicap an otherwise good bird.

THE HEN:

Neck Hackles -- Cream, softly barred grey.
Breast -- salmon, well defined in outline.
Body -- silver grey, with rather indistinct broad soft barring.
Wing Primaries -- Grey -peppered.
Wing Secondaries -- Very faintly barred.
Wing Coverts -- Silver grey.
Tail -- Silver grey, faintly barred.
Crest -- Cream and grey, some chestnut permissible.
Beak -- Yellow.
Eyes -- Orange or red.
Comb, face, and wattles -- Red.
Earlobes -- Pure white or cream.
Legs and Feet -- Yellow.

Eggs - Blue

Regarding being new to the breed, everyone in the USA is new to the breed, in all honesty. It was just last year or was it late 2011 that Cream Legbars came to the USA.

I'm beginning to think that the female Cream Legbars in the USA are now a greater departure from the SOP than the males. I think that the dark crested females do have the salmon breast and silver-gray color (again not meaning the white color--but more like sterling silver)

Also, I guess from my correspondence with Jill Rees, who is a delightful person, and had won all the top prizes in poultry shows in UK with her Cream Legbar females last year....Egg color in the UK isn't as important as it is to us in the USA. Add to that the fact that color perception, and color theory has changed since Punnett's time....maybe his stated blue was another color.

Regarding shafting -- hoo boy is kind of right. Just think, what if the notion that it was a defect crept into the breed? All the people who prefer the look would be disappointed, all the people who own Cream Legbars would have birds that have shafting -- and what? Years of time would be spent trying to eliminate it -- for what gain? Or people would just leave the breed behind and go to a different blue-egg layer for their blue-egg needs.

Whoops -- just had to drive the truck out the the hay field to pick up dh who drove the tractor out there to unload yet another 18-wheeler load of hay -- hopefully this time it won't be a load of tash hay like all the others have been this year. Poor cattle...alas.--

ETA --see I already referenced that...so deleting..that's what happens when you drive away...LOL

 

[ChicKat]

KPenley HA! I just might have to do that!

LOL

lonnyandrinda,
How much would it cost, or is it possible at this time, to buy a hard copy of the Club Newsletter and have it mailed to me?

Hi TheTropix---

You can go to the clubhouse and bring up the newsletter---YOU should be able to print it on your printer... Let me look -- I was under the impression that all the newsletters are available in there.
Yep, go to "Publications" then click on Volume 1 Number 3 -- when it is on your screen you can right mouse click -and choose print from the drop down menu -- Now if you are on a different device, you may have to send it to a printer with an App for Android or a Bluetooth -- or if you have those fruity ones---I don't know how you do it but it must be possible.

 

[ChicKat]

Is this what would have to happen in the USA, if a consensus wouldn't be found? -
Didn't that happen with Marans? And -- some folks preferred the French style with feathered shanks and some preferred another country's was it UK -- so eventually the feathered legs won out? The feathered legs are one reason I wouldn't want a 'true' Marans'

Perhaps your suggestion will lead somewhere.

 

[lonnyandrinda]

KPenley HA! I just might have to do that!

LOL

lonnyandrinda,
How much would it cost, or is it possible at this time, to buy a hard copy of the Club Newsletter and have it mailed to me?

Hi TheTropix---

You can go to the clubhouse and bring up the newsletter---YOU should be able to print it on your printer... Let me look -- I was under the impression that all the newsletters are available in there.
Yep, go to "Publications" then click on Volume 1 Number 3 -- when it is on your screen you can right mouse click -and choose print from the drop down menu -- Now if you are on a different device, you may have to send it to a printer with an App for Android or a Bluetooth -- or if you have those fruity ones---I don't know how you do it but it must be possible.

X2 As a fledgling club we do not have the resources or connections to print and mail much yet. We are however trying to make all the publications "printable" so as ChicKat said we can print them at home on our own. If you do not have a way to print it yourself let me know and I will print a copy for you from my home printer and mail it to you.

Rinda

 

[TheTropix]

Thank you X10 Chickat, for Punnet's SOP, and the insight. I have lots to say, but I'll pass. No I won't, (i can't lol) But thank you for the original SOP by Punnet re: Punnet's Cream Legbar. (sorry Mr. Pease, you'll come soon enough) Well, if the chestnut on the back and shoulders, and the chestnut smudges on the wing coverts were good enough for the guy that created them, they're good enough for me, and I prefer them. Apparently there isn't a problem in the UK admitting they 'improved' the bird for their own needs/desires over the years. So I think the British SOP should be moot, unless we use Punnets version, and fill in the missing blanks, like shanks, shafting, # of tips on combs, tipping (lol KP) and so on. Why is there such a problem with every detail, even the ones that are already laid out by the guy that made them? Don't we reckon he knew what his bird should look like?
To beat a dead horse, in that SOP above, am I mistaken that Punnet differentiates between cream, gray, and dark gray, in the same sentences when describing the color. I think the word cream has also been 'improved' to mean something that is not creamy. Eggnog is a creamy color, yet it isn't silvery or whitish. Wiggle room for interpretation of color? Cream by any description I have ever heard (art, paint color...) is an off-white in the yellow family, not silver/whitish.
From what I can gather, our (closest to) perfect bird(s) is/are probably already out there, according to Punnet's description. Could the future of this Breed be its' past? (with blanks filled in as mentioned above) ..and Not the current, confessed to be 'improved', bird in the current UK SOP? Some of this just seems like it has been over-complicated, as well as over-interpretted when there is already enough complications involved with the task at hand. I know I am mentally STUCK on this point, but cream is cream, gray = gray/gray shades, or must it only be battleship gray or storm cloud gray? and I think Punnet meant gray and cream, when he wrote down gray and cream. The man had seen plenty of silvery/whitish birds, but he still chose NOT to describe the Cream Legbar as silvery-whitish, but as cream... with no mention of silver, or silver-ish, but some white is allowed on the (roosters') wing primary feathers. Sounds so clear & simple. Could it be? (i feel a resounding he!! no! coming)
Personally, I don't want the UK's current bird color, the chestnut color is beautiful and I don't want it gone... and neither did Punnet! I like the birds we were all introduced to and came to love....and they're still closer to Punnet's SOP, than the UK's birds.

 

[ChicKat]

LOL

Hey the tropix -- everyone loves a trouble-maker......

It does seem to have approached a real degree of complication that isn't making progress easy. could this be the interpretation, or the translation from across the pond.

Perhaps we need a Pease-style Cream Legbar -- i.e. Silver Legbar with crest...and a Punnet-style Cream Legbar -- i.e. Gold Legbar with Crest that Lays a blue egg.......

Just like you TheTropix, I was enchanted with the description that Punnet said about the birds that I have since been told applied to Gold Legbars.... that is more like I picture the Cream Legbar, more stunning -- hate to say it, kind of flashy. The female like a Brown Leghorn but gray rather than brown with a crest. Punnet says something like it isn't a spectacular bird...but now-a-days, I don't see many Brown Leghorns around -- and it reminds me of a lady in a very tasteful, chick winter-tweed suit -- wearing a black hat...and a salmon blouse. Which compared to a lot of what I see now-a-days is flashy. Oh yep and as normanack posted once long ago -- maybe that red comb is like Dutchess of Cambridge red hat called a fascinator -- oops two hats, the crest will have to represent the hair.

This is exactly the kind of conversation that needs to surface now -- before anyone goes any further....and people in the Club (The survey results are in the clubhouse if you want to take a look at the powerpoint-like presentation btw) - who are kind of clamoring for help with determining which of their birds to use for breeding -- with specific pictures to exemplify--- deserve to have this clarified.

 

[Pozees]

Thanks to all - I wanted to say I mis-typed what I meant about the crest color, when I typed cream and silver I meant cream and grey. Apologies. Still wondering whether the dark crest is less correct. When I read cream and grey in my mind I see a pretty light to medium colored crest, not dark.

Thanks to all. Really, really enjoying all this discussion. And the birds, of course

 

[TheTropix]

lmao ChicKat!!! Trouble-maker, indeed!! rofl I went looking, a little, at images of Gold Legbars, and I do see the very close similarities. However you also see the silvery/whitish ones called Gold Legbars and some with gold hackles called Creams! I don't think ANYONE knows for sure, anymore!!! We know they aren't Gold legbars, they don't lay blue eggs. HEY, wait a minute. Could the reason OLIVE eggs are now a part of the UK SOP for Cream Legbars be due to breeding with the Gold Legbars? Then possibly 'breeding them back to whatever' to get back to the BLUE eggs, but left the extra gold?
If so, wouldn't it almost demand that either 1. the UK breeder(s), of line 1 & 2 of GF's CLs, mislead Greenfire,(and now they have the more correct ones - thanks!(I think in finances, that's called double-dipping) or 2. Greenfire didn't do it's homework prior to importing/selling (not likely w/all the $$$), or 3. Greenfire mislead the USA? Those are 3 possibilities I think about a LOT. One of those possibilities answers at least several of the questions/issues we're all facing right now, about the color. Doesn't it?
Let's take the bird back to its original description and really save the Breed! It's veering off course. I know that I know less about these things than y'all do, but maybe that also gives me just a touch, and only a touch, of clarity that ignorance of too many facts can bring. Outside looking in, kind of thing.
Also, after reading of the changes in the Cream Legbar in the UK - via the Cream Legbar Club and Legbar Thread! - I don't really give a WOO HOO about what they say across the pond.
ChicKat, are you suggesting the same thing I'm suggesting as well? A Breed and a Variety of that Breed? $10 from each member would more than pay for the Variety fee, and defray some of the cost associated with the primary Breed Standard fees for the APA as well. $10 bucks and we might be able to have both versions, with the Punnet version as Primary! HA!!!!!

 

[TheTropix]

Thanks to all - I wanted to say I mis-typed what I meant about the crest color, when I typed cream and silver I meant cream and grey. Apologies. Still wondering whether the dark crest is less correct. When I read cream and grey in my mind I see a pretty light to medium colored crest, not dark.

Thanks to all. Really, really enjoying all this discussion. And the birds, of course

That's ok. I was about to add, not @ you.. just in general, that silver is not gray. Could the color everyone is describing (lighter birds) be better described as platinum? (which also isn't cream or gray)