Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[nicalandia]

Quote:
the Small female and small rooster have color closer to standard(specially the female)...

 

[GaryDean26]

Quote: If chestnut is both allowed and not allowed isn't this the same thing as writting yellow or willow legs, 5-7 points on the comb, red or orange eyes?

I have been studying up on how the Cream Light Brown color is achieved in the Yellow Partige Leghorns and the Dutch Bantams. In those breeds they call a cream bird that has gold parent, gold grandparent, or gold great grandpartent a "Swaver". "Swavers" are used to improove on body type, but are not to be used in exhibition. The Dutch say that Swavers will not breed true. They will produce unever cream color to where the head of the bird is orange while the hackels and saddles are cream, or to where the cream color will not be an even bright yellow color from the tip of the head to the end of the saddles, but will rather show two or three tones. In these varrieties the call the straw color "dead hay" and it is not accepted in exhibition. The cream varriety of these breeds fall into what the breeders call the red sholdered group. My assumption was that a good quality of Cream Legbar would follow the breeding pactices for achieving the best cream color for these two breeds and then added the barring factor. As has often been the case, my early assumptions were wrong. Nicalandia's endless efforts to make sure that we "get it right" pointed out that the Cream Legbar requires additional melonizers in addition to the barring factor on top of a cream base.


http://waasse-kriel.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=67172190

Here is one that I am assuming would be labled a Swaver and DQ'd in Holland. He has the "dead straw" at the base of hisneck hackels rather than an even color from head to tail.


http://leghorn.nl/images/stories/foto/leghorn_geelpatrijs_haan.jpg

Her is one with the brighter correct colored cream. They avoid the light cream in these breeds and said that not only is it difficult for the breeder to sort the lighter creams from the golds, but that when they go for acceptance of the cream varriety they have a hard time convincing poultry judges that the cream merits its own varriety if it is not distinct and distinguishable at a glance from other varrieties (i.e. gold & silver).


http://www.hollandsekriel.nl/kleurslagenpagina's/geelpatrijs800600.htm

Here is another guy with the even color from head to tail in a lighter shade.

These cream breeds have red backs and red sholders. The Cream Legbar standard if for grey sholders and wing bay triangles. In looking for examples of this I came across these South American breeds.



https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/758166/rare-south-american-breeds-including-the-colloncas

These don't have any cream. The males deffinatly have a melonizer covering the red sholders (whith some chestnut).

And the next breed apears to be a Lavender (color?), or a Cream Self-blue Red Enhanced (color???). I am not sure what we can learn from this breed's color but it looked cream and was on the same page as the breed above.

 

[LaBella]

This wing bay of secondary feathers has gold overtones. This I believe to be indicative of gold still evident in the bird. I cull for this. I select for a gray and white barred wing bay with no gold overtones as shown below.

I have to admit, this comment confuses me, and I have seen it said several times.
It confuses me because the gold will always be in the breed because the cream legbar is the result of ig inhibiting gold. So genetically they are gold with a double recessive dilute gene effecting the color gold, as well as a sex linked dilute gene which is singular in females and doubled in males further effecting the gold. Unless the gold being referred to is the chestnut "bleeding" into the secondaries, which makes things much less confusing for me.

They avoid the light cream in these breeds and said that not only is it difficult for the breeder to sort the lighter creams from the golds, but that when they go for acceptance of the cream varriety they have a hard time convincing poultry judges that the cream merits its own varriety if it is not distinct and distinguishable at a glance from other varrieties (i.e. gold & silver).

Lol, doesn't that sound familiar? After all without the crest, (and blue eggs) the CLB would be indistinguishable from the gold and silver legbars.

 

[KPenley]

@ Mr. C: So you think that the chestnut smudges remarks allowed Swavers to be entered into UK competition?

@ LaBella: Cream is actually genetically cream, but I guess you mean like all birds are on a gold or silver base? M is commenting to the effect that birds exhibiting the golden colors in the secondaries of the wing bay are in fact gold, not cream (lacking 1 or both of the copies of ig+).

 

[dretd]

.... The Cream Legbar standard if for grey sholders and wing bay triangles. In looking for examples of this I came across these South American breeds.



https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/758166/rare-south-american-breeds-including-the-colloncas

These don't have any cream. The males deffinatly have a melonizer covering the red sholders (whith some chestnut).

And the next breed apears to be a Lavender (color?), or a Cream Self-blue Red Enhanced (color???). I am not sure what we can learn from this breed's color but it looked cream and was on the same page as the breed above.

This last guy is very similar in coloration (down to the bluish colored breast but with a tad more AR) to a mixed breed roo that had a Brahma x RSL roo over Welsummer hen. I assumed it was a single copy Silver/Columbian pattern over Partridge:
Cockerel in question on the left (same roo x Light Brahma on right)

Rooster used for cross (hackles were lemon colored but didn't photograph-more like cockerel on the right in above photo)

hen used for cross

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
seeing how re enhancers were not as studied or very well known(still a mistery today) back in those days, writing the SOP to accommodate a percentage of birds being hatched on those days is very differnt than willow or yellow legs, as this has ben well documented and its caused by a single recessive sex linked gene, even on those days..

 

[dretd]

Quote: Hi Labella, I am struggling to understand the genetics behind this wing triangle myself.

After going through many posts here and on other threads, I am coming to the conclusion that although the Light Brown Leghorns have a gold wing triangle which would dilute to cream and white barred with the ig/ig and barring, the SOP from Britain calls for grey barring which means that the birds have added melanizers over the gold (like pictures of the Brassyback posted on another thread I think) making the barring on the wings appear grey.

When Blackirds13 says she is culling for the gold barring I believe she is trying to eliminate non-melanized, non-cream birds from her gene pool to address one of many parts to the SOP. I had been looking at so many other parts to the birds it is only recently I have started to zero in on this one aspect. But I am coming to the conclusion that a lot can be revealed about the genetic makeup of the bird by looking at the wing triangle and Blackbirds13 is very smart in looking at this as a criteria for culling.

Honestly, the 'some chestnut permissible' on the coverts and wing bows I believe is a result of red bleeding that will show up commonly in this area in mixed breed roos--which the Cream Legbar was when it was developed. I will tell you after breeding a number of mixed breed roos, that one of the very first indicators of a roo vs a pullet is seeing red/rust/chestnut smudges appearing the the cockerels shoulders/bows/coverts when they start feathering in. I'd say greater than 75% of them have this and I think it is an earlier indicator of sex than waiting for the comb and crow to develop. If you look at the rooster I showed above, you can see the chestnut on his coverts. Here is a different roo (BrahmaxRSL roo X Salmon Faverolles hen) where you can see the chestnut bleeding not only on his coverts but also across his back.

 

[dretd]

Quote: I think that what GaryDean is saying is that the British SOP is a little more flexible than the American SOP in that it allows a range within an attribute such as allowing a range of 5-7 points on the comb, whereas the American SOP requires there to be one fixed ideal for that attribute. This is why the American SOP as proposed calls for 6 points. So saying both with or without color cannot happen, but you can word it such that here is the ideal but a little chestnut is allowed.

 

[CibolaChooks]

Quote:
the Small female and small rooster have color closer to standard(specially the female)...

I agree i like the smallest pink band rooster. If he grows up and fills his chest out he has the best tail best color and form

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
the small female has that grey slate tone to her that is called on the SOP, but I dont know how much size should be Sacrificed for color... maybe mating the large rooster to the smaller hen?