Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[GaryDean26]

This last guy is very similar in coloration (down to the bluish colored breast but with a tad more AR) to a mixed breed roo that had a Brahma x RSL roo over Welsummer hen. I assumed it was a single copy Silver/Columbian pattern over Partridge:
Cockerel in question on the left (same roo x Light Brahma on right)

The Cream Light Brown breeders stated that some breeds have an accepted "Golden" varriety. It is created by crossing Silver Birds and Light Brown varrieteis. The varriety doesn't breed true. If they crossed two golden bird they would get 50% golden, 25% light brown, and 25% silvers (whihc would all be culls since the red from the light browns would be fused to the silver making their exhibition quality forever lost). They said that only a very good judge would be able to tell the Golden birds from the Cream Light Brown Birds, but that the Cream Varrieties we well worth the increased difficulty to breed because they were a resessive gene (you don't get sports of other hidden colors poping out) and it breeds true (Cream X Cream = 100% Cream).

I think that what GaryDean is saying is that the British SOP is a little more flexible than the American SOP in that it allows a range within an attribute such as allowing a range of 5-7 points on the comb, whereas the American SOP requires there to be one fixed ideal for that attribute. This is why the American SOP as proposed calls for 6 points. So saying both with or without color cannot happen, but you can word it such that here is the ideal but a little chestnut is allowed.

Excactly! The particular preference of the APA Judge for the day shouldn't be the one to decide what is the most correct. The UK standard allows the PCGB Judge to treat white or cream ear lobes as equales, orange or red eyes as equals, 6 or 7 points as equals, but we have already been advised that APA will not. They only alway one preference for every area. So why is it not clear whether "some chestnut" or "no chestnut" is preferable in the SOP? Since we don't know who to breed for grey wing bay triangles and grey shoulders yet I would no make any changes in the proposed SOP at this time, but think this is something that we should watch and discuss at a future time.

P.S. I saw a photo of a Cream Light Brown that was a very pale cream several days ago but could locate it to share. It is ovioulse that the Facebook group UK Legbar breeders all are selecting for the lightest cream possible. Punnet & Peases' writting also make it oviouls that they did the same thing in their selection. I wish I could find a "dead straw" Cream Light Brown again to post again to show how un-actractive it is compared to the Yellow Patrige birds in Holland. Since Holland has the best Cream birds and knows best how to breed Cream I think that we should learn from them and work towards the hackel and saddle colors that are like the Cream Crele Leghorns in Holland rather than breeder for the absence of color which they DQ cream birds for in Holland.

 

[KPenley]

I can understand trying to follow an example that has been set by expert breeders in Holland, but they are not dealing with the dilution of double barring on top of that beautiful cream. So are you looking for the Dutch cream color in hens only?

 

[GaryDean26]

Well, I though the barring (light? dark? other?) were the reson that I was struggling with the cream vs. gold distinction so I decided to remove the barring from my view for a while and just focus on the cream base untill I could see the distinction in the non-barred birds then go back to the barred ones.

What I am finding is that the breeders of non-barred Cream Light Brown Dutch in the US had the same problems with distinction as we do when they started with the cream varriety. They struggled for years trying to out cross to light browns hoping to improove color and never knowing why their birds could not achieve a quality cream color or achieve consistency in their lines. I think by treating cream as checklist item (either they have it or don't) that we are likely falling into the same pitfall that other breeds have strugled with. If we don't treat the cream the same way that breeders of the cream Light Brown varriety do then how can we expect to build anything on top of it with good results?

As nicalandia mention they have tons of varieties of Leghons in Holland. He possed one that was their Crele Cream Leghorn. This is a barred color that is built on a cream bace. I am certain that if the Poultry Judges in Holland DQ Cream Light Brown breeds for signs indicating that Light Browns are in the make up, that the same standard is held for the Cream Barred breeds and that the master breeders know how to breed the varriety to the higher standard that has been set.

The Cream Light Brown Dutch Bantam is the only breed with that color in the APA Standards and the breeders are complaining that the Judges didn't understand the color when it was accepted and that most of the 50+ exhibition birds at the qulifying meet were Swavers (so that is what the judges have to now hold the breed to). The UK face the same lack of master breeders in the Cream Light Brown varriety. The fad in the UK for the past 7-8 years has been to go to birds void of color (one way to eliminate the inconsistency in distribution of cream). I however see the words Cream in the SOP no silver, white, or blahh. After looking more into cream I am leaning towards learning the breeding practices used in the Cream Light Browns to achieve a evenly distributed bright yellow ground color and trying the same method with the cream Legbar to build a Cream Legbar with the that as its base under the barring factor rather than the trend to select for zero color which results from a barred bird build on a dead staw cream base.

 

[KPenley]

Thanks for your thoughts Mr. C. Can you point me in a direction to learn about the process the Cream Light Brown Dutch breeders have experienced? TIA

 

[GaryDean26]

The information written by Jean Robocker in has been the most enlightening to me on the cream color. Below are her most prominent articles.

Breeding the Cream Light Dutch Bantam
Understanding the Cream Light Dutch Bantam
A New Word to Learn In Dutch Bantams

I also read two articles by Roy Schell then just goggled "Cream Light Brown", "Yellow Partridge", "Geelpatrijs", "orangehalsig", "bantam orangehalsig", etc.

I did send a note to Jean requesting more information on breeding the Dutch Standard of Cream Light Brown. I haven't head back from her, but if not her, will find someone else with expertise on achieving even cream color with consistency. She said that she now feels that double mating is required for exhibition quality Cream Light Brown. I am not a fan of double mating, but do want to know why led to that conclusion and what she can accomplish with double mating that she can't with single mating, etc. I bet the pair below was double mated.


http://www.theleghornclub.com/PhotosYPartridge.asp

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

Well, I though the barring (light? dark? other?) were the reson that I was struggling with the cream vs. gold distinction so I decided to remove the barring from my view for a while and just focus on the cream base untill I could see the distinction in the non-barred birds then go back to the barred ones.

That is why I made some of the crosses that I made. I plan to try to make some cream light brown birds just to see what they look like in largefowl. The birds I made without barring showed melanizers that made them look odd. Most of the non-barred birds had black crests, black in the breasts, and smutty looking hackle. I would like to breed the non-barred light brown legbar pullet (3/4 legbar) I have to a light brown leghorn rooster, then breed a son back to her and get some cream light brown birds, just to visually see what I'm really dealing with.

Marvin and I have a different mind set than many people when it comes to genetics. I like to tell people that the way I learned genetics was to look at what makes up the original wild type color, then see how each and every mutation affects it. That is why the pictures of completely different birds help people that have a mind like mine, see how things happen.

 

[fowlman01]

Well, I though the barring (light? dark? other?) were the reson that I was struggling with the cream vs. gold distinction so I decided to remove the barring from my view for a while and just focus on the cream base untill I could see the distinction in the non-barred birds then go back to the barred ones.

What I am finding is that the breeders of non-barred Cream Light Brown Dutch in the US had the same problems with distinction as we do when they started with the cream varriety. They struggled for years trying to out cross to light browns hoping to improove color and never knowing why their birds could not achieve a quality cream color or achieve consistency in their lines. I think by treating cream as checklist item (either they have it or don't) that we are likely falling into the same pitfall that other breeds have strugled with. If we don't treat the cream the same way that breeders of the cream Light Brown varriety do then how can we expect to build anything on top of it with good results?

As nicalandia mention they have tons of varieties of Leghons in Holland. He possed one that was their Crele Cream Leghorn. This is a barred color that is built on a cream bace. I am certain that if the Poultry Judges in Holland DQ Cream Light Brown breeds for signs indicating that Light Browns are in the make up, that the same standard is held for the Cream Barred breeds and that the master breeders know how to breed the varriety to the higher standard that has been set.

The Cream Light Brown Dutch Bantam is the only breed with that color in the APA Standards and the breeders are complaining that the Judges didn't understand the color when it was accepted and that most of the 50+ exhibition birds at the qulifying meet were Swavers (so that is what the judges have to now hold the breed to). The UK face the same lack of master breeders in the Cream Light Brown varriety. The fad in the UK for the past 7-8 years has been to go to birds void of color (one way to eliminate the inconsistency in distribution of cream). I however see the words Cream in the SOP no silver, white, or blahh. After looking more into cream I am leaning towards learning the breeding practices used in the Cream Light Browns to achieve a evenly distributed bright yellow ground color and trying the same method with the cream Legbar to build a Cream Legbar with the that as its base under the barring factor rather than the trend to select for zero color which results from a barred bird build on a dead staw cream base.

I was the APA judge and Gus Vinage was the ABA judge at the qualifying meet.. We understood the color, it was submitted to us by the Dutch Club and was approved by Jean Robocker. These online stories always pop up after years.........and are usually promoted by people that were not there. They make good stories...and that's all they are.

Walt

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

Also, was going to mention since you brought up Jean Robocker and Dutch bantams that she has some of the citroen dutch. I remember the first time I saw one of her citroen/lemon mille fluer Dutch bantams in person, it was very stunning. Her and I have met a few times at shows, she has a wealth of knowledge and is a great person. Anyway, where I was going with that was that one of the out crosses I did to silver phoenix this year produced a lemon colored bird. I made the outcross to take blue eggs and crele coloring into phoenix and only kept a few pullets. 2 of those pullets have better cream than my legbars, kind of dead grass color or a super sunbleached khaki campbell duck color, and the third pullet is barred and all like a legbar pullet, she has a salmon breast and everything, but her hackle almost glows like the citroen/lemon colored birds. This is a recessive color so I am debating on it. It could be the real lemon showing up or (most likely) is just dilute popping up from the phoenix.


I know this is the cream legbar thread so I don't post much here but had to add my two cents worth on this

 

[LaBella]

@ Mr. C: So you think that the chestnut smudges remarks allowed Swavers to be entered into UK competition?

@ LaBella: Cream is actually genetically cream, but I guess you mean like all birds are on a gold or silver base? M is commenting to the effect that birds exhibiting the golden colors in the secondaries of the wing bay are in fact gold, not cream (lacking 1 or both of the copies of ig+).

Yes, I mean like all birds are on a gold or silver base. The cream legbar has to be gold, because ig does not effect silver, and it would not be too presumptuous to assume that ig stands for inhibits gold. If you can see a bird is cream, it's a gold bird that is expressing a double recessive color diluter gene. It's genetically gold, just as a blue dog is genetically black, with a similar double recessive dilute gene. Modifiers cannot express without their base. Ig is a modifier.
But thank you for the clarification, as I have said, I have seen similar words to the same effect, and I was not sure if the topic of discussion was the gold base color which if it was, made no sense to me, or if it was what I was thinking of as chestnut bleed, which made much more sense.
I would rather express my confusion, and have it cleared up than continue being confused.

ETA: If anyone needs something translated from any dutch sites that the translator is giving you trouble with, let me know. One of my best friends is Dutch, and she does my translating for me.

 

[Darkangael]

I appreciate the offer of translation help and all of the other duscussion going on about the breed. My personal leanings are to avoid going to far towards the colorless birds currently a fad in Great Britan, because fads don't last with time there is always a new fad. Thats why I agree with aiming more for the Pease and Punnett standard. I believe that the idea of learning more about how the Dutch manage to get an even cream ground color will be most helpful in our own efforts to achieve gorgeous birds of our own. Sorry for any typos only real computer access is on my phone til I can fix my computer.