Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[nicalandia]

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I need one, even the Culls from GFF lines will help me do an outcross to Silver Leghorns and take it from there....

 

[dretd]

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Well, I think my difficulty in switching horses in mid-stream is that the name of the breed and club for which it is named is the Cream Legbar, not the Gold Crested Legbar. Invite more riders and horses, that's the ticket.

One of the things that attracted me to this breed in the first place is the historical context of the bird's development and the challenge it presents to bring it up to breed standard. There are many flaws in the population as it is in the US. Many birds lacking crests, color, high tails, low weights, crazy combs. The list goes on and on. By the logic changing the standard to match the majority of birds, we would drop the birds weights, make floppy combs on a rooster a-ok and have squirrel tail a feature, too.

Considering how many breeders within just a generation or two have been able to breed the color align more with the SOP as it came over from England with the mis-colored birds, I am not sure that getting a requisite number of cream birds will be any harder than getting a sufficient number of non-cream birds that are of a minimal quality in type to pass the grade. Lots of other problems to work on too. Color is just one.

In all seriousness, I nominate you the head of the Gold Crested ( or Gold Crele, or Light Brown or ?? Variety) Legbar Exploratory Committee. Perhaps a poll at the next Club meeting to see the interest in adding a new variety/ies and how many breeders are willing to really work on the type of the bird so that (other than color, or comb in the case of the Rose Comb variety) it could gain acceptance through vigorous promotion and showing of that variety. If 90% of the breeders who are serious about getting Legbars through the APA process are more focused on colorful birds than on Cream birds then it can move forward. There needs to be a certain dedication of the folks to promote a variety and I honestly don't know what people not only like, but are willing to breed and promote.

I can only speak for myself. I don't mind the colorful birds, they are very pretty! I have 3 pullets who I think are gold (although one is a very pale gold compared to her sisters so it is confusing) and two of which lack crests. And two 3 week old cockerels that I am positive are Cream but one will have a gigantically wavy crest. My goal is to breed a flock of Cream Legbars up to proposed SOP standards using what some would consider inferior birds. Each individual has some serious flaws and would be cut at shows and moreover would probably be culled by a breeder with more stock. The thing is they are not without merit. Add crests to the two girls or size to a girl and one of the roos or reveal the hidden ig in the females and in 2 generations with lots of hatching and culling I predict I will have birds that can be shown and meet SOP. Its part of the process I embrace that challenge instead of trying to change the rules. If the traits were impossible to fix via selective breeding then I could see a case to change the standard. I think it makes the most sense for us to add an additional variety or three so everyone can follow their passion and breed what makes them happy.

 

[fowlman01]

Reading all this reminds me of why I retired from the university. you can deviate from the original plan, but this breed/variety will probably take forever to become recognized if that happens. What is the history of the breed? Did it just develop 2-3 years ago? . You can play with color all you like, but if the body form is incorrect they will never be accepted. So far the only birds I have seen that meet the body description are not here in the US....not saying there aren't some, but I haven't seen them yet.

The acceptance process takes 2-10 years on average. This could be done in 5 years if the Standard could be finished and folks actually try to meet it. IMO you are going to need some real breeders to clean these up. Genetic whiz's and BYC breeders are not going to get these straightened out any time soon. Making chicks is no big deal, but breeding chickens to a Standard is.......not many people can do it well or at all.

The qualifying meet is in one location and the committee tries to work with folks with this.

I'm an old guy so I don't have time to sugar coat my comments....no smiley faces.....and so on.

Walt

 

[nicalandia]

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how about Making me the Head of the Silver Creasted Legbar exploratory Committee? Believe me I would work on type, tail angle and comb and egg color with GGF lines even if the birds were very Rich colored instead of gold... I would not focus on color but type knowing that when this has been achieved, adding Dominant Silver to my line would be rather Straightforward.....

 

[dretd]

Reading all this reminds me of why I retired from the university. you can deviate from the original plan, but this breed/variety will probably take forever to become recognized if that happens. What is the history of the breed? Did it just develop 2-3 years ago? . You can play with color all you like, but if the body form is incorrect they will never be accepted. So far the only birds I have seen that meet the body description are not here in the US....not saying there aren't some, but I haven't seen them yet.

The acceptance process takes 2-10 years on average. This could be done in 5 years if the Standard could be finished and folks actually try to meet it. IMO you are going to need some real breeders to clean these up. Genetic whiz's and BYC breeders are not going to get these straightened out any time soon. Making chicks is no big deal, but breeding chickens to a Standard is.......not many people can do it well or at all.

The qualifying meet is in one location and the committee tries to work with folks with this.

I'm an old guy so I don't have time to sugar coat my comments....no smiley faces.....and so on.

Walt

The more matter of fact you are the better for all of us. Don't hold back, it's ok to share how you really feel as your opinion matters more than most.

I think that you have honed in on the important part and indeed the problem. Getting the cream legbar accepted is a lot of work and type is really important. There needs to be a group of folks that are focused and have a plan with their flocks to make it happen. The color discussion, though important, seems to have overshadowed discussion about type. The cream color is a simple ig/ig gene and will be far easier to correct than some of the other problems I mentioned before.

Thank you for stating the judges perspective. And the more the better! We need your point of view.

 

[nicalandia]

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I agree ig/ig is just a color and a simple autosomal recessive... work on Body/Type first. the you can focus on color...... even if the ig/ig is lost in the process, there are many ways to skin a Cat

 

[ChicKat]

Wow, I think you must have had insomnia last night. A lot of things to think about.

It would be interesting to find out if the APA Hamburg acceptance procedures were different back in the day.

Because I said that doesn't mean that I think we should try for six varieties of CL at one time -- just saying that there would be a precedent for a multiple and NOT saying that is our route. - Sorry if that is what it sounded like, but that fact did strike me as interesting.

A point of clarification, You has posited that the Gold coloration can be obtained from Cream. Only if the Cream bird is bred to a Gold bird (or there is a mutation). Two copies of the recessive gene ig are required to express cream/mask gold. So once you have a bird that is phenotypic Cream, it has to have 2 copies of the ig gene and all progeny will have 2 copies when bred to another cream bird and thus the progeny of the Cream line will always be ig/ig and look Cream.

Here's what I meant... if I have a gold bird and a double cream, I can eventually obtain cream, as KPenley demonstrated with a graphic resembling Punnett's square in the previous CL club newsletter.....Likewise, if I had only cream birds and bred a gold bird -- because gold is dominant, then I could have gold birds.... Sorry if it seemed I was implying it would come out of thin air. LOL.

I am actually a fan of the idea of a Rose Comb Variety as well as a more colorful variety gaining acceptance. It would let folks follow their passion with the breed. I thought that KPenley had said that trying to get more than one variety at one time was going to be hard. This topic had come up several months ago and I think the suggestion was that perhaps committees could be established to explore each variety to see if there is interest. Talk to me in email about committees - and I will follow up on an earlier committe conversation you and I had...

Could you please elaborate on your comment about the varieties having a better chance than if there was just one SOP getting looked at. I am a little confused about the point.

IF the Cream Legbar were to move into the realm of being a show bird that would only interest breeders who want to obtain a silver looking bird via a diluted cream avenue, the interest may grow small. If the Cream Legbar was recognized (or it this case any of the Legbar varieties) as a utility bird that would guarantee to the raisers that they would not have roosters, would lay numerous eggs, and provide the persons needs from the chicken, I think in the long run the breed would have a better chance to succeed. I think that the showing world is more narrow than the chicken raising world in general, and that a well known, easily recognized, highly utilitarian breed would align with the original intent of autosexing breeds.

Could you also clarify the judge education statement? I have had several conversations with the APA judge Walt and he has repeatedly (and patiently) said that it will be up to the CL Club to inform the judges what our birds are all about. Are you saying that if the SOP stands as written that there is no room for interpretation? Or is that there is plenty of room for interpretation with the exception of notable features such as the rose comb?

Even an iron clad SOP would leave room for interpretation if it contained variables: -- such words as 'of moderate length'
Wattles: Moderately long, thin, uniform in size, well rounded, free from folds or wrinkles. Skin soft.
Legs and Toes: Legs moderately long, straight when viewed from the front. Thighs are medium length.
Red type is lifted from our SOP
As opposed to - something like shanks 3" in females and 5" in males which wouldn't be open to interpretation.

My thought is that, as others have stated, the judges will formulate their views based on what they see, and if all birds of a certain style are everything that they see, it will become the norm. Perhaps that is what you (and Walt) were meaning by the showers educating the judges....but as far as interpretation, 5 points is 5 points on a comb... the bird will either have it or not, what would need to be educated about that? If the judge saw all 7-8 pointed combs, then perhaps a 6 would be a higher rated comb...but I don't see how any education would be required on that. You can help me understand what you meant by that -- apology for missing the boat. Were we to ever have multiple varieties of CLs accepted, than again, I think that the SOP for the bird would seem kind of obvious in most places -- tell me what I am missing - because I've only been into chickens a few years....

Although I like the idea of more varieties for the Cream Legbar, just getting one through really is a daunting task and in my mind having 2 or 3 will only multiple the number of breeders needed to get the Cream Legbars passed. It would seem to me that starting with the one that is proposed, since there is historical record of the SOP in England and Cream Legbars were imported from England, would be logical and then adding other varieties at a later date when there is enough passion from the breeders to have a critical mass would follow.

Perhaps the danger would lie in the fact that what we are trying to have accepted isn't the bird that folks started with. Some folks have been hurt, turned off, discouraged etc. by remarks that their birds aren't good enough. Although this is true, and none of our birds are good enough, my concern is that a very large number of enthusiasts have already, or could loose their enthusiasm for Cream Legbars for two reasons. 1. They came on board with a more colorful bird than our "desired outcome" (sorry to go back to project management, but it's in the blood. And 2. They don't find the genetic hoops particularly appealing.

Add to this that as normanack and nicalandia joked, those with birds that are cream would be asked to supply birds to those who are interested in the breed and don't have cream...and then all the birds will be related to each other, while a wide swath of genetic diversity is lost to the future. Hopefully this will shed some light on what I was trying to express.

 

[ChicKat]

There are many flaws in the population as it is in the US. Many birds lacking crests, color, high tails, low weights, crazy combs. The list goes on and on. By the logic changing the standard to match the majority of birds, we would drop the birds weights, make floppy combs on a rooster a-ok and have squirrel tail a feature, too.

No one is suggesting, in the least, that low weights, absent crests, floppy combs and squirrel tails are put into the/a standard. Just to be clear here.... LOL

Rather that higher weights, straighter combs, and better tail angels are more likely from a greater number of birds, than from a lesser number of birds....

 

[Darkangael]

Agreed need more genetic diversity in the breed not less if we want the breed to do well here long term, and I believe that no one wants to reduce the utility aspect of the breed for what is ultimately a minor concern sure I think more color is nice but it is really not the main reason I am interested in the breed.

I can live with window dressing I do not prefer for some of the other things this breed brings to the table.


Personally I intend to breed for type with the pretty window dressing coming later, I realize I will have alot to learn about breeding and have been reading up extensively on the subject as well as poultry genetics.


I have some ideas for some test crosses and such to learn more of what might be lurking in my birds when I get them, and will likely have many more questions once I am at tgat point in my plan.


I may or may not decide to work on a heavier version of the legbar as a meatier dual purpose depends how well the legbar ultimately fits my plans, currently I believe they will fit very well.

 

[LaBella]

Quote: I disagree.
I think that the reason that type isn't being discussed, is everyone has a pretty good idea of what the type should be, they have a pretty good idea of the physical flaws in combs, earlobes, tails and so forth, as well as how to correct them and everyone is in agreement about these things. The color keeps coming up, because there is no clear consensus on what the color is supposed to be.
If everyone is clear on type and is in agreement on type, of course it's not going to come up. Type has pretty much been settled. Color has not. You know the squeaky wheel gets the grease, well, color is the squeaky wheel.