Wow, I think you must have had insomnia last night. A lot of things to think about.
It would be interesting to find out if the APA Hamburg acceptance procedures were different back in the day.
Because I said that doesn't mean that I think we should try for six varieties of CL at one time -- just saying that there would be a precedent for a multiple and NOT saying that is our route. - Sorry if that is what it sounded like, but that fact did strike me as interesting.
A point of clarification, You has posited that the Gold coloration can be obtained from Cream. Only if the Cream bird is bred to a Gold bird (or there is a mutation). Two copies of the recessive gene ig are required to express cream/mask gold. So once you have a bird that is phenotypic Cream, it has to have 2 copies of the ig gene and all progeny will have 2 copies when bred to another cream bird and thus the progeny of the Cream line will always be ig/ig and look Cream.
Here's what I meant... if I have a gold bird and a double cream, I can eventually obtain cream, as KPenley demonstrated with a graphic resembling Punnett's square in the previous CL club newsletter.....Likewise, if I had only cream birds and bred a gold bird -- because gold is dominant, then I could have gold birds.... Sorry if it seemed I was implying it would come out of thin air. LOL.
I am actually a fan of the idea of a Rose Comb Variety as well as a more colorful variety gaining acceptance. It would let folks follow their passion with the breed. I thought that KPenley had said that trying to get more than one variety at one time was going to be hard. This topic had come up several months ago and I think the suggestion was that perhaps committees could be established to explore each variety to see if there is interest. Talk to me in email about committees - and I will follow up on an earlier committe conversation you and I had...
Could you please elaborate on your comment about the varieties having a better chance than if there was just one SOP getting looked at. I am a little confused about the point.
IF the Cream Legbar were to move into the realm of being a show bird that would only interest breeders who want to obtain a silver looking bird via a diluted cream avenue, the interest may grow small. If the Cream Legbar was recognized (or it this case any of the Legbar varieties) as a utility bird that would guarantee to the raisers that they would not have roosters, would lay numerous eggs, and provide the persons needs from the chicken, I think in the long run the breed would have a better chance to succeed. I think that the showing world is more narrow than the chicken raising world in general, and that a well known, easily recognized, highly utilitarian breed would align with the original intent of autosexing breeds.
Could you also clarify the judge education statement? I have had several conversations with the APA judge Walt and he has repeatedly (and patiently) said that it will be up to the CL Club to inform the judges what our birds are all about. Are you saying that if the SOP stands as written that there is no room for interpretation? Or is that there is plenty of room for interpretation with the exception of notable features such as the rose comb?
Even an iron clad SOP would leave room for interpretation if it contained variables: -- such words as 'of moderate length'
Wattles: Moderately long, thin, uniform in size, well rounded, free from folds or wrinkles. Skin soft.
Legs and Toes: Legs moderately long, straight when viewed from the front. Thighs are medium length.
Red type is lifted from our SOP
As opposed to - something like shanks 3" in females and 5" in males which wouldn't be open to interpretation.
My thought is that, as others have stated, the judges will formulate their views based on what they see, and if all birds of a certain style are everything that they see, it will become the norm. Perhaps that is what you (and Walt) were meaning by the showers educating the judges....but as far as interpretation, 5 points is 5 points on a comb... the bird will either have it or not, what would need to be educated about that? If the judge saw all 7-8 pointed combs, then perhaps a 6 would be a higher rated comb...but I don't see how any education would be required on that. You can help me understand what you meant by that -- apology for missing the boat. Were we to ever have multiple varieties of CLs accepted, than again, I think that the SOP for the bird would seem kind of obvious in most places -- tell me what I am missing - because I've only been into chickens a few years....
Although I like the idea of more varieties for the Cream Legbar, just getting one through really is a daunting task and in my mind having 2 or 3 will only multiple the number of breeders needed to get the Cream Legbars passed. It would seem to me that starting with the one that is proposed, since there is historical record of the SOP in England and Cream Legbars were imported from England, would be logical and then adding other varieties at a later date when there is enough passion from the breeders to have a critical mass would follow.
Perhaps the danger would lie in the fact that what we are trying to have accepted isn't the bird that folks started with. Some folks have been hurt, turned off, discouraged etc. by remarks that their birds aren't good enough. Although this is true, and none of our birds are good enough, my concern is that a very large number of enthusiasts have already, or could loose their enthusiasm for Cream Legbars for two reasons. 1. They came on board with a more colorful bird than our "desired outcome" (sorry to go back to project management, but it's in the blood. And 2. They don't find the genetic hoops particularly appealing.
Add to this that as normanack and nicalandia joked, those with birds that are cream would be asked to supply birds to those who are interested in the breed and don't have cream...and then all the birds will be related to each other, while a wide swath of genetic diversity is lost to the future. Hopefully this will shed some light on what I was trying to express.
