Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[fowlman01]

Here are a couple pics of one of the pullets. Ignore the color, but how is her type, according to the proposed standard?

This are some of the best type I have seen so far. They are not rounded (in the pictures) in the lower breast but this is a good start. They probably look better in real life.

w.

 

[ChicKat]

No, it does not have good Leghorn type. I see a huge difference even though the photo angle is not the greatest. Look at the two illustrations above posted by GaryDean.......that is what good Leghorns should look like although today they have more tail in the males. This is one of my bantams, but you see all the extra tail in this shot. He also has his wings low as her tries to pick a fight with his coop mate.



The correct type for you folks is in GaryDeans illustrations. Dont worry about trying to make a big bird. Todays Leghorns as noted are overweight. There are no scales at a show so some judges go with these monster birds.....they shouldn't. Once chickens get too big the males start to have leg problems and the hens have laying problems......you don't want any of this. These problems are what ultimately keep the birds from getting too big. They get too big and they can't reproduce.....that takes care of the problem. And I can't see these getting too big any time soon.

Walt

Amazing bantams!

 

[ChicKat]

This are some of the best type I have seen so far. They are not rounded (in the pictures) in the lower breast but this is a good start. They probably look better in real life.

w.

Way to go FMP!!

 

[fowlman01]

Amazing bantams!

This is a learning moment.

Who noticed that the earlobes are nice ovals. Who noticed the width of feather in the tail? Who noticed the wing carriage? The first two are subtle....to you, but not to me. I am hoping that this will raise awareness to how every little thing is there to see if you know what to look for. I remember taking a girl on a date as a teenager. I brought her to some tide pools and we looked into them. She could only see water and I saw a bustling community. You train your eye to look for things once you are aware that they are there.

Walt

 

[lonnyandrinda]

If you organize this I can bring a male and female Leghorn with excellent type to show the finer points of the shape.

Walt

Oh man do I wish I lived closer to Cali!!!!

This is a learning moment.

Who noticed that the earlobes are nice ovals. Who noticed the width of feather in the tail? Who noticed the wing carriage? The first two are subtle....to you, but not to me. I am hoping that this will raise awareness to how every little thing is there to see if you know what to look for. I remember taking a girl on a date as a teenager. I brought her to some tide pools and we looked into them. She could only see water and I saw a bustling community. You train your eye to look for things once you are aware that they are there.

Walt

AWESOME comparision. Thanks.

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

This is a learning moment.

Who noticed that the earlobes are nice ovals. Who noticed the width of feather in the tail? Who noticed the wing carriage? The first two are subtle....to you, but not to me. I am hoping that this will raise awareness to how every little thing is there to see if you know what to look for. I remember taking a girl on a date as a teenager. I brought her to some tide pools and we looked into them. She could only see water and I saw a bustling community. You train your eye to look for things once you are aware that they are there.

Walt

To me, I noticed that the wings looked like a game bantams but that has to do with the overall stance, I figured it was because of the other rooster next to him. From what I have read on feather width is that most warm climate birds (leghorns, minorcas, oriental games) should have thinner feathers because they are from a warm climate. Generally you want the cold weather breeds (rocks, orpingtons, faverolles) to have wider feathers to help trap body heat. That is what I have read and heard from some old breeders anyway.

I know what you mean about the details though. When I used to be big into saltwater tanks, I had many small fish, lots of different corals and sponges everywhere. When most people looked at it, they saw the rock work, the large tang, an anemone, but that was about it. To me, I noticed all the tiny zoanthids, the small cleaner fish, hermit crabs, baby snails, the whole picture.

 

[fowlman01]

To me, I noticed that the wings looked like a game bantams but that has to do with the overall stance, I figured it was because of the other rooster next to him. From what I have read on feather width is that most warm climate birds (leghorns, minorcas, oriental games) should have thinner feathers because they are from a warm climate. Generally you want the cold weather breeds (rocks, orpingtons, faverolles) to have wider feathers to help trap body heat. That is what I have read and heard from some old breeders anyway.

I know what you mean about the details though. When I used to be big into saltwater tanks, I had many small fish, lots of different corals and sponges everywhere. When most people looked at it, they saw the rock work, the large tang, an anemone, but that was about it. To me, I noticed all the tiny zoanthids, the small cleaner fish, hermit crabs, baby snails, the whole picture.

I don't buy the cold climate vs warm climate. The wide feathers are only in the tail...in this case. Game birds have narrow feathers because of what they were used for and they also have very hard feathers. you need to look at a SOP to see what they require, but most of the time it does not say narrow or wide. Wide tail feathers don't add any economic value, but they make the bird more striking looking while still meeting the same description.......it's all the details when you are a serious show person. I mentioned it as I was pretty sure most folks would not see it unless pointed out.

w.

 

[LaBella]

Quote:
The people that are committed to this breed know what the flaws are in their lines, what they need to correct, how they should correct it. I have been reading every page on this thread, and on both the other main legbar threads, and that is the impression "I" have gotten.
Is anyone "there" yet with regards to type? No they aren't, but they are getting there, generation by generation. People are improving the outline, the framework, the type, of the birds they have. Just because people are not speaking in show speak doesn't mean they don't know what they see, can't see what they have and see where they need to go.
Did anyone read my intro? I said there that I don't do the political correctness thing. And I also don't do the appeal to authority fallacy either. Suggesting the Chicken University thread IS helpful, yes, and I plan heading there when I have caught up on this thread. No one ever knows everything, and a good breeder is always learning new things, a better interpretation of what they already knew, or a better way of doing things they have done, or completely new innovations in that world, be that world chickens, rabbits, or fancy mice.
Do I really think everyone here has a good idea on how to correct some of the type flaws? YES, Yes I do. And those that are not have a wealth of knowledge to draw on both here and across the pond. The internet is an amazing thing, and while not everything is real, true, or should be believed, it's not that hard to look at winning birds and extrapolate from that where you need to go with YOUR flock. That's because I believe that when someone is committed to something, they work, they learn and then they DO.
I would never disparage someone in the trenches, doing the work, and getting their experience that way because they don't speak the right words in my opinion. These are the people that might just show up with an unknown horse, pulled in a trailer hitched to a pick up truck, and leave the academics in the dust the way one Kentucky Derby winner did in recent history.

 

[ChicKat]

I disagree.
I think that the reason that type isn't being discussed, is everyone has a pretty good idea of what the type should be, they have a pretty good idea of the physical flaws in combs, earlobes, tails and so forth, as well as how to correct them and everyone is in agreement about these things. The color keeps coming up, because there is no clear consensus on what the color is supposed to be.
If everyone is clear on type and is in agreement on type, of course it's not going to come up. Type has pretty much been settled. Color has not. You know the squeaky wheel gets the grease, well, color is the squeaky wheel.

LaBella,
You did 'nail' it -- There isn't controversy about most of the SOP. I appreciate your insight on that one and bringing it to everyone's attention.

Dretd - Perhaps an activity for the future would be to go through the SOP - as you suggested and do a CLSU and put in the pictures of what people have now. Before when this was suggested, I don't think that enough folks had enough birds for comparison.

 

[fowlman01]

Let me clarify some things. The reading I suggested was to learn basic poultry vocabulary, not show poultry terms. I have been in on this from the beginning and have read all the pertinent information. Most of you appear to be poultry novices...nothing at all wrong with that and if I was not supportive I would not have spent the time in person with one of your reps. .......and it appears I will be doing that again which is something I do for beginners. if beginners want to be know it all's.......well then they don't need my help. I don't know it all either, but chances are I know more than most folks online. I'm not politically correct either, but I try to help beginners. 4H, adults everyone who can leave their ego at the door. I am currently mentoring about 6 people here on BYC and in addition I have a 4H group I help.

I know I don't come across as warm and fuzzy, but I don't have time to think about what I say or how I say it. This thread has had all kinds of "drive by" posts from poultry genious's that have been in this for a couple years or less. If you overestimate you abilities you will fail at this.

Lastly I am the guy that this Standard is going to for initial approval, so it needs to be correct. I could care less if anyone of you show after you get this in. Showing is not for everyone and I understand that.

Walt