Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[Laingcroft]

Thanks for your input Tru!

For everyone: Please keep in mind that the Cream Plumage article alluded to above was pertaining to Leghorn crosses, not Cream Legbars. The Cream Legbar that was standardized and accepted in 1958 was a descendant of these birds when crossed with Pease's Cream Legbars (at that time uncrested and white egg laying). So while Punnett's goal in his paper was transferring the cream to the Brown Leghorn, this was not the end game bird for us.

Yes, there was further crossing but it was all based upon CREAM research. The paper was published for peer review after the fact (sometime after 1942, the latest date referenced re: funding) and contains the following footnote " * While this experiment was in progress I learned from Mr. M.S. Pease that he had obtained the following evidence telling against the supposition of a multiple allelomorphic series. A gold hen carrying cream when mated with a cream cock gave golds and creams of both sexes. On the supposition of multiple allelomorphs one would have expected all the male chicks to be gold and the females to be cream."

The point of the breedings was to isolate and determine the effects of the CREAM gene on plumage, specifically of the Leghorn. An experiment was also done with the Rhode Island Red as to the effect of cream on its plumage but was discontinued. "...a Rhode Island Red was crossed with the pale cream derived from the Buff Leghorn cross. For various reasons the work was not carried far, but enough evidence..."

We could also argue that today's silver phenotype birds are the "end game" Legbar for us, but I don't believe they should be based upon opinion or preference. Dr. Punnett and Mr. Pease saw something that was obviously and markedly different from either Gold or Silver plumage and we should be trying to figure out what that was so we can breed toward it. If you would be so kind as to post a link to Mr. Pease's papers, it would be helpful

 

[Laingcroft]

Volume 41, October, 1940 "Genetic Studies in Poultry, XI. The Lebar" by R.C. Punnett

This paper discusses the barring effect for autosexing and outlines the chain of breedings that led to the Legbar. "As might be expected from a breed founded on the Brown Leghorn, the Legbar shows a marked sexual dimorphism in the plumage. The hen (reference to an image plate) is not unlike a Brown Leghorn in general appearance, though the gold of the hackle and the salmon of the breast are rather less intense...The cock on the other hand is a strikingly handsome bird...he is barred all over, though the general effect is definitely lighter and softer than in a barred breed such as the Plymouth Rock. At the same time the pale gold of the hackles and the bright chestnut of the wing coverts lead to his presenting an appearance at once brilliant and quite unlike that of the male of any recognized breed."

Assuming (as I have no definitive reference to cite) that Punnett and/or Pease bred chicks from their respective cream projects -- not forgetting that Mr. Pease's birds were gold Legbar and white/cream Leghorn -- to Legbars, also based on the Leghorn. And given the reference in both papers to pale gold in the hackles and chestnut in the coverts of the cock, I am going to further assume that autosomal red on the shoulders/coverts i.e. some chestnut/mahogany per the standard, is not only permissible but a good indicator that the birds are NOT silver based. This is further supported by the fact that Silver Leghorns do not express ANY autosomal red even if silver isn't believed to have an affect on autosomal red.

 

[ChicKat]

In 1957, Cambridge U discontinued their poultry breeding program. The flock(s?) of CLs went into private hands. Among them was David Applegarth. He has created a commercial egglayer called the Skyline that produces blue eggs for the commercial market in the UK, as I understand it. Here is a link to an article:

http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/15/01/2009/113812/poultry-breeder-to-produce-applegarth-skyline-layer.htm

One of the things that is fascinating about CL is that could be the beginning of the period of disarray that Steen and Laingcroft refer to. Naturally going from a monitored University program into private hands with an uncertain future, -- anything can happen.....

I think GaryDean26 did get some added information from Mr. Applegarth - and as I interpret it, the genetics by 1957 were rather thin. At that point there were definitely outcrosses probably just to maintain survival of the Cream Legbars. A question for people with genetic expertise may be just how much of the original Punett genetics survive to this day. Two folks, one in the UK and one here in the USA have advised me that we should look at the SOP. As Tru pointed out, and as a number of us have stated, the SOP would incorporate a range of chickens from the artist rendered images by Diane Jacky to a number of other CLs that are walking around now.....

http://www.zazzle.com/cream_legbar_chickens_dinner_plate-115460731560556806

 

[KPenley]

@ Tru: I agree with you for the most part regarding the importance of the Leghorn as an ancestor, as well as the presence of some chestnut (not necessarily Ar, as we're all still studying, and Ar actually can show up on Silver...but that's another topic all together). Seriously.

But here is my concern...I am seeing many well intended posters post articles about unbarred leghorns or gold legbars to somehow "prove" that the Cream Legbar should look just like a Gold Legbar (only with the added crest and blue eggs) and none of the writings I've seen about Cream Legbars say that. If you refer back to the Legbar article you quoted in regards to color you will find that it is indeed referring to the Gold Legbar, not the cream. I've corrected this error too many times to count over the past year, sorry for the repetition.

I apologize again for the inconvenience, but the Pease articles are still under copywrite so there are no legal photocopies available to post links to yet. The originals are available through Library exchange.

Like you posted about not wanting our breed to "be based upon opinion or preference", I agree that we should be careful to work with what we know. And what we know is that a standard was written, accepted by the Autosexing Association, passed on to and accepted by the PCGB, and remained pretty true to its original form for over 60 years.

 

[KPenley]

@ K: You're right! The Cream Legbar was basically a mutt. A beautiful cream, crested, autosexing, blue egg laying one though! And it was standardized. That should not be so easily ignored.

 

[GaryDean26]

Yes, the blue egg project was started with a Gold Penciled Hamburg cockerel over a yellow Chilean Hen. Penciling however is NOT created by the barring gene. You can not create an auto-sexing breed from a Gold Penciled Hamburg and a yellow Chilean Hen. That is not how the Cambrige University breeding program achieve the Legbar and is not how David Applegarth did it either.

The Gold Legbar project was a separate project that Punnet describes in the Journal of Genetics (JG) article title "the Legbar". He imported a Plymouth Rock hen from Canada to the UK for the project and crossed it with Brown Leghorns. The Original Legbars were Gold and were created with out a drop of Hamburg blood or Chilean Hen blood.

The Cream Plumage Project recounted in the JG was a spin off of the Blue Egg project. After the Blue Egg study was wrapped-up Punnett went back to the offspring of the Hamburg and Chilean hen, who had been out of the breeding loop for several years, and did a separate study on the Cream Gene. That Cream Plumage project was concluded about the same time the Gold Legbars project was completed. Cream Sports were found in the Gold Legbars project after the Cream Plumage project was already complete. The Cream Ground Brown Leghorns that were created in the Cream Plumage Project were crossed with the Sports from the Gold Legbar lines to further explore the Cream Gene. The cream ground Brown Leghorns still had the blue eggs gene and cresting gene in their lines, so the blue eggs and cresting came from the cream ground brown Leghorns from the Cream Plumage Project. The auto-sexing came from the Gold Legbars using the barring of the barred rock hen imported from Canada. The Leghorn type came from both lines, and the Cream plumage came from both lines (most likely the Hamburg used in the Blue egg project, and a White Leghorn used in the Gold Legbar Project).

When the breed was accepted as a breed in the UK in the late 1950's it was required to be a uniform breed to be accepted and was. 30 years later its former glory and had dwindled to nearly extinct. A man named John Croome who had worked at Cambridge University on the Auto-sexing breed projects had some Cream Legbars. He gave some hatching eggs to Mr. David Applegarth in 1987 (those were his first ever CLB's. Applegarth did NOT get CLB form Cambridge in the 50's). Two pullets were all that hatched and the following year Croome gave Applegarth a Gold Legbar cockerel to breed to the CLB hens (I assume that there were no Cream Legbar Cockerels available). The mating failed and to continue breeding Applegarth was forced to out breed the hens which he did to an Auracana. Applegarth then spend years following that to fix cream plumage, auto-sexing, cresting, and blue eggs in the line. He said once those were all fixed that he deemed his line as pure Cream Legbars. The commercial blue egg breeders got their Cream Legbars from Applegarth's line. Applegarth maintained pure Cream Legbars and other rare breeds that he help preserve for 30 years and was reported and shipped 1000's of pure Cream Legbars around the UK. It wasn't until the later years that he started working on blue egg hybrids. Breeding a flock for 30 years is a long time and switching to hybrid was probably a move to bring vigor back and to try something new.

Edited to correct John Coombs to John Croome

 

[dretd]

@ Tru: I agree with you for the most part regarding the importance of the Leghorn as an ancestor, as well as the presence of some chestnut (not necessarily Ar, as we're all still studying, and Ar actually can show up on Silver...but that's another topic all together). Seriously.

But here is my concern...I am seeing many well intended posters post articles about unbarred leghorns or gold legbars to somehow "prove" that the Cream Legbar should look just like a Gold Legbar (only with the added crest and blue eggs) and none of the writings I've seen about Cream Legbars say that. If you refer back to the Legbar article you quoted in regards to color you will find that it is indeed referring to the Gold Legbar, not the cream. I've corrected this error too many times to count over the past year, sorry for the repetition.

I apologize again for the inconvenience, but the Pease articles are still under copywrite so there are no legal photocopies available to post links to yet. The originals are available through Library exchange.

Like you posted about not wanting our breed to "be based upon opinion or preference", I agree that we should be careful to work with what we know. And what we know is that a standard was written, accepted by the Autosexing Association, passed on to and accepted by the PCGB, and remained pretty true to its original form for over 60 years.

Good Morning KPenley. I do believe that I am one of the posters that you are referring to as being well intended but go on to say that I have advocated that the Cream Legbar is nothing but a gold legbar with a crest that lays blue eggs. I initially posted the reference to the unbarred cream leghorn Punnett piece because it has been bothering me that Nicalandia has been advocating that you cannot tell the difference between Silver and Cream and even suggested recreating the Cream Legbar using Silver an that none would be the wiser. The referenced piece says that the body is silver grey but a warm silver grey. That's all. It makes me feel like you haven't heard my point of view when you are saying that I am advocating a point of view that I have not advocated.

I have never said, not once ever, that the Cream Legbar is the same as the Gold. I believe that we should at least consider that Cream does not equal Silver in phenotype and there is historical evidence this is the case. It most certainly does not equal gold. All I asked was that we consider looking at the SOP and see if there is a better wording that could be had to describe Cream as separate from Gold and Silver. Considering that the APA requires much more detail than the British SOP in many ways, I do not think that it is inconsistent to look at all aspects of the SOP as it has already been enhanced in detail to conform with the APA's more detailed description. Not saying that it should be done soon, either. In fact this is something for two or three years down the road. What I ask is that we keep an open mind and consider many things, not that we have to change things or there is any urgency.

If we fail to consider all aspects of the Cream Legbar, and we get the description wrong, future breeders will be paying the price. The Cream Legbars will ultimately pay the price as well when breeders find it too difficult to breed in one pen and go to double breeding or even add in silver genetics to achieve the perfect bird. Now is the time to be considering all aspects of SOP and make sure that it is the best wording we can make.

To be clear, I don't in any way want to diminish what you or Heather have done with the SOP, it quite obviously took a lot of time and effort on your parts to get it so well written and I really appreciate your efforts!

 

[nicalandia]

it has been bothering me that Nicalandia has been advocating that you cannot tell the difference between Silver and Cream and even suggested recreating the Cream Legbar using Silver an that none would be the wiser.

on a bird with double barring, without the Diluting factor of the sex linked barring gene cream can look golden in nature not silver, but Add the Barring gene to it and it will look Almost silver looking, well that will also depend on the red enhancers found on such a bird, if they are strong the bird will have a golden tone instead


and ofcourse a Silver Creasted Legbar with red enhancers would also look like a "cream/Butter" its all about the phenotype

 

[KPenley]

Happy Sunday Dr. E! Nope, I was not referring to you. I think you are a great researcher, and I appreciate that we sometimes have differing views, or I would not have invited you to the table. As proven before there are times when I am vague, or I argue the misuse of an article when I actually agree with the point being discussed, and it comes out wrong. I apologize. I agree with what you're saying regarding the standard, and I do hear you. Since many seem to have the wrong impression about me, I am not condoning changing the CLB to a silver base, but this does not mean that a Cream Legbar can't look silver while still being genetically ig. I once played with the idea of trying to isolate the Ar with S to lessen it, but I couldn't find any quality birds to use so I never got to do my experiment.

To Everyone: I move that we temporarily put a hiatus on the what color is cream debate. We will get back to it, but there are more pressing matters at the moment.

I would like to continue the conversation with photographic support for an edit to the wing description, particularly a clearer more descriptive APA based description of the secondaries and all flight feathers. If anyone has photos of their Cream Legbar roosters with an open wing could you please post them? It would also be helpful if you added the age and colors of the neck/hackles and saddle with barring. Thank you for your help!

Example from a pic Heather posted here last year.

Age: checking
Neck/hackles: cream barred with dark gray and straw with some chestnut.
Saddle: cream barred with straw and minimal gray.

 

[nicalandia]

Happy Sunday Dr. E! Nope, I was not referring to you. I think you are a great researcher, and I appreciate that we sometimes have differing views, or I would not have invited you to the table. As proven before there are times when I am vague, or I argue the misuse of an article when I actually agree with the point being discussed, and it comes out wrong. I apologize. I agree with what you're saying regarding the standard, and I do hear you. Since many seem to have the wrong impression about me, I am not condoning changing the CLB to a silver base, but this does not mean that a Cream Legbar can't look silver while still being genetically ig. I once played with the idea of trying to isolate the Ar with S to lessen it, but I couldn't find any quality birds to use so I never got to do my experiment.

To Everyone: I move that we temporarily put a hiatus on the what color is cream debate. We will get back to it, but there are more pressing matters at the moment.

I would like to continue the conversation with photographic support for an edit to the wing description, particularly a clearer more descriptive APA based description of the secondaries and all flight feathers. If anyone has photos of their Cream Legbar roosters with an open wing could you please post them? It would also be helpful if you added the age and colors of the neck/hackles and saddle with barring. Thank you for your help!

Example from a pic Heather posted here last year.

Age: checking
Neck/hackles: cream barred with dark gray and straw with some chestnut.
Saddle: cream barred with straw and minimal gray.

he forgot to add

Shoulders: Chestnut