Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[nicalandia]

Quote:
would changing the wording in the SOP from large to medium large help this on this problem? and I have seen CCL males with Medium sized combs and they dont seem to have this issue as much as the larger ones.. and Medium sized combs will help alot of the breeders in the USA in the cold climates..

 

[dretd]

Quote:
This is a very good question and one that we will need to ponder over the next few years. I have seen quite a few roosters with combs so large they come to the very tip of the beak (and beyond) and they are so tall that they have a twist at the very front, too, which is a defect. I had been calling that front fold on many of the males a fold, but when I read my new APA SOP I got for Christmas (thanks Santa!) there on page 23 they have a faults of the head illustration with the front fold labeled as a 'Twisted Comb in front'. Our proposed SOP says "... free from side spikes, thumb-marks or twists." SO that front 'fold' is worse than I thought in terms of defects.

I personally like a more medium sized comb myself and it would avoid some of the defects we have talked about. It is not a decision that should be made in haste and we really need to talk to British judges as well as American ones, too. As noted, the American Sulmtaler standard I found did change the wording from medium-large to medium. Is this becasue they wanted it to really be a smaller comb, or is this becasue in Europe a medium-large is an American Medium much like shoes sizes and clothing sizes are different between the two continents. I will say that a size adult small shirt we bought in Paris for my daughter is really an extra-small by American standards.

 

[GaryDean26]

is avoiding the problem created by a large comb that is required to follow the line of the head.

I was going to ask the same thing. The Legbar comb type mirrors the UK standard for the Leghorn, but the Cream Legbars that I have seen with the large crests and straight combs all have the APA type Leghorn comb or even fly away combs. Breeding away from the Legbar SOP and working towards combs that come away from the line of the neck is something I am considering trying with my flock but it is a decision that I will make further on since other areas are being worked on right now.

Below is a cockerel ChicKat posted on the Legbar Show thread. At 2 years old he still has a perfectly straight comb and a good sized crest. His comb however comes away from the neck line.

 

[nicalandia]

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is either that or reducing the crest, which I dont think its good for a breed called the "Crested" Cream Legbar, I think breeding for this type of comb should considered by the people doing the american SOP

 

[dretd]

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He is interesting becasue not only does his comb not follow the head/neck, but it also does not extend as far back as the representations of the male leghorn comb I have been studying in both the SOP and the Black and White APA Standard illustrations. The combs on those boys do not appear as tall as what I am used to seeing and they extend farther back beyond the farthest point of the back of the ear lobe...is that what is meant by "extending well over the back of the head and following, without touching, the line of the head"?

When I first got the B&W APA illustrations I realized that the Cream Legbar seems to match the illustration for the Minorca better than the Leghorns, at least what I have seen pictured and what I had in my mind for CL roos. The illustrations I am looking at show the Minorca's comb closely following the line of the head whereas the Leghorn and Ancona both have the comb separating up a bit from the neck--though there is an arch and not going straight back like this handsome fellow.

It seems that it would solve some comb issues if we were to delete that last bit: "following, without touching, the line of the head". What do y'all think?

 

[CibolaChooks]

That roo has no top of the head. Its all comb like cap that covers the entire head

 

[ChicKat]

Quote: nicalandia - actually it isn't correctly called 'crested cream legbar' - the name was long ago changed in the UK to simply Cream Legbar although some folks still use the crested....:O)


This is so interesting to me because I'm thinking that I will really concentrate on the rooster's comb in 2014.

Regarding the correct comb - if we do have wrinkles, curves, etc. are they a disqualification? or would it just be points off in a judging situation? Would this begin to be an area where a judges personal preference came in? One had 8 points but no wrinkles - one had the exact SOP number of points - ( is is 6?) but a wrinkle or a thumb mark.... now both are imperfect - as lacking all the qualities of the perfect comb - who scores better? And in reality it would only matter if all other aspects of the two roosters in question were identical which also wouldn't happen.

Regarding Writing up the Comb in SOP - to remove 'follwoing without touching the line of the head' if this is important to the correct comb and to the breed....then we should leave it in - if it is something that is valuable and achievable...but What exactly does that look like? What is a "following without touching" line? If no CL on earth has it -- then is it truly a trait of a CL? This is why it is probably a really good thing that there is a time window into the future that will allow for intricate review of the SOP. IF there isn't one CL that has that type of comb, then how could it correctly be a trait of the breed rather than -- hmmm wishful thinking, or someone's idea of what one would look like if perfect. My expectation that the SOP would be representative of the breed and show what a perfect individual of the breed would look like so people can breed toward it - rather than someone's imagining of a chicken that doesn't exist. To achieve one single chicken that had all the traits would be a monumental and nearly impossible task, but to have numerous traits written into a standard that are simply not representative of any of the chickens alive -- seems a bit fanciful IMO.

ETA - that tassel crest is what I think I am going to aim for. I like the neatness and the fact that it most likely will not push the comb so far forward that it will begin to pucker along the top line and be really distorted...

ETA - dretd, maybe when there is a crest - the comb cannot really follow the back of the head the way the untasseled breeds do - and that is something worth really investigating with all the CLs that people are raising now.

 

[WHmarans]

I like the more overly active crest.. Lillian style. So I'll have to figure out how that can work with my hope for a smaller tidier comb especially on males. I wouldn't give up the crazy crest though its the only notable thing about my roo to some people.

That being said the folding over comb on females is distinctive and interesting. I didn't think I would like it but its grown on me and that doesn't lend itself to a tidy male comb. So this isn't leading me toward the single pen I was looking for ..

 

[KPenley]

Grey has been used in the past as an example of a bird having a large straight comb that follows the back of the head. He has a small crest.

Also, folds, twists, wrong number of points are 1/2 to 1 point deductions.

 

[GaryDean26]

Well, if the following the line of the neck isn't the problem, then we are best off to stick with the English style comb rather than changing to and American Comb since the Cream Legbar would be in the English Class and not the American Class.