Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[ChicKat]

I have been doing what research I can on the history and progression of the comb. The Cream Legbar's SOP is based mainly on the Leghorn as far as I can tell. The English class is a mishmash of different breeds and they do not include the Leghorn (Orpington, Dorking, Redcaps, Cornish, Sussex, Australorp) so there is really no comparison on comb types between the different breeds.

The Current American version of Leghorns comb (from the 2010 APA SOP, pg 117): "Comb: Single; fine in texture, of medium size, straight and upright; firm and even on the head (fig 68), having five distinct points, deeply serrated and extending well over the back of the head with no tendency to follow the shape of the neck; smooth, free from twists folds or excrescences"

The Contemporary English Leghorn comb version (taken from the Australian site) http://leghornclubaustralia.webs.com/leghornstandards.htm COMB: Single or rose. The single of fine texture, straight and erect, moderately large but not overgrown, coarse or beefy. Deeply and evenly serrated (the spikes broad at their base), extending well beyond the back of the head and following, without touching, the line of the head, free from “thumb marks”, side sprigs or twist at the back.

The Dutch version does not list a specific type but indicates closer the the English version although in the artwork the comb looks somewhat smaller than the English ideal http://www.leghorn.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1&Itemid=132

The Legbar head standard as it was submitted in 1958 ---there is no mention of the comb closely following the head http://blue-eggs.co.uk/#/history-of-cream-legbars/4554275782 :
HEAD- Crested; beak stout; eyes prominent; comb single, straight and erect, evenly and deeply serrated, large but not overgrown, extending beyond the back of the head, free from side sprigs; earlobes well developed, pendant, smooth, and open; wattles long and thin.

The current Legbar comb standard http://blue-eggs.co.uk/#/standard-for-cream-legbar/4554224408 Head: Fine. Beak stout, point clear of the front of the comb. Eyes prominent. Comb single, perfectly straight and erect, large but not overgrown, deep and evenly serrated (5 to 7 spikes broad at the base), extending well beyond the back of the head and following, without touching, the line of the head, free from "thumb marks" or side spikes.

Legbar (not Cream) photo from Punnett's paper 1940 http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/41/1.pdf showing what I would term a more American-Style comb.



Conclusion: it looks like at some point between 1958 and the present, the Legbar standard was modified in the English SOP to match the English Leghorn comb which included adding wording to change the shape so that it now follows the head and neck instead of not commenting on that aspect of the comb. The photo leads me to believe that the Legbars original comb did not follow the line of the head.

So the loaded philosophical question is: Are we as a Club trying, through historical studies, to embody (or at least take into account) the Legbar as it was originally created by Punnett and Pease, or are we trying to replicate the current model of Cream Legbar as it is in the UK? Or something in between (tweaking the English version to acknowledge the history of the breed and make it more utility oriented and less show oriented)?

What thoughts do y'all have?

Great research - I appreciate the thoroughness.

Originally I had thought and subscribed to the idea that we would try to replicate the Punnett & Pease CLs...but now, I think that too much time has elapsed, and too dispersed genetics are in the breed to be able to accomplish that.

I think that Walt Leonard has told us that the closer our USA SOP is to the UK SOP - the greater the likelihood of APA acceptance. It is kind of tough though, that there are changes since the original admittance to the GBPC's Standard...that don't seem to have explanation in some instances. It would be interesting to know how and why those changes got incorporated.

We can be alert, at least to make sure that some of the problems that presently exist for some of the breeds due to the way that their Standard is written don't get incorporated into the eventual USA Standard for the Cream Legbar.

 

[TheTropix]

Quote: I'd thought he made that reference about the chicks down.

 

[nicalandia]

I'd thought he made that reference about the chicks down.

no, just adults..

 

[CibolaChooks]

Great research - I appreciate the thoroughness.  

Originally I had thought and subscribed to the idea that we would try to replicate the Punnett & Pease CLs...but now, I think that too much time has elapsed, and too dispersed genetics are in the breed to be able to accomplish that.  

I think that Walt Leonard has told us that the closer our USA SOP is to the UK SOP - the greater the likelihood of APA acceptance.  It is kind of tough though, that there are changes since the original admittance to the GBPC's Standard...that don't seem to have explanation in some instances.  It would be interesting to know how and why those changes got incorporated.  

We can be alert, at least to make sure that some of the problems that presently exist for some of the breeds due to the way that their Standard is written don't get incorporated into the eventual USA Standard for the Cream Legbar. 

Id first like to sayI like DC chickens. He was very helpful I assume he when I first started raising chickens with some questions i had. so I'm sorry for using him as an example. If someone has their own ideas of what a breed should be and writes a standard to fit their desires.it would create the problem mentioned in this post I quoted. If he writes a standard for his needs and a group of breeders gets it accepted first. anyone who has current Legbar stock or buys Jills Birds or any that have been imported from Britain following the British Standards will have an extremely hard time meeting DC chickens standard he proposes. the unexplained changes in the SOP and why some breeds are hard to meet the standards might be because an individual wrote or changed things for their needs. Only their flock and breeding programs would be able to meet them easily everybody else would have a hard time getting their lines to meet the standard.

 

[nicalandia]

Id first like to sayI like DC chickens. He was very helpful I assume he when I first started raising chickens with some questions i had. so I'm sorry for using him as an example. If someone has their own ideas of what a breed should be and writes a standard to fit their desires.it would create the problem mentioned in this post I quoted. If he writes a standard for his needs and a group of breeders gets it accepted first. anyone who has current Legbar stock or buys Jills Birds or any that have been imported from Britain following the British Standards will have an extremely hard time meeting DC chickens standard he proposes. the unexplained changes in the SOP and why some breeds are hard to meet the standards might be because an individual wrote or changed things for their needs. Only their flock and breeding programs would be able to meet them easily everybody else would have a hard time getting their lines to meet the standard.

who or what is DC chickens?

 

[WHmarans]

who or what is DC chickens?

Nicalandia that is the person who wants to write a dual purpose cream legbar SOP.

And your point is an interesting one steen: How is any change from the UK standard different from DCchickens proposing the change the SOP to dual purpose?

 

[nicalandia]

Nicalandia that is the person who wants to write a dual purpose cream legbar SOP.

And your point is an interesting one steen: How is any change from the UK standard different from DCchickens proposing the change the SOP to dual purpose?

oh I see.....

how is any different? well we know the American Leghorn have a break away comb and yet they are classified as Mediterrean class, just as the British Leghorns.. but I dont think the Leghorn has ever been a Dual Purpose breed, ever

 

[CibolaChooks]

Was the site down for maintenance for everyone or just me. I cant get to my pms or quote anyone

 

[nicalandia]

Was the site down for maintenance for everyone or just me. I cant get to my pms or quote anyone

just you

 

[ChicKat]

Hi Steen

One example of a Standard written wrongly was pointed out to me by Sigrid van Dort. She said that in the Dutch standard a barred (or was it cuckoo or crele) hen wasn't supposed to have barring on the breast...which is just kind of plain wrong. Her email to me is posted in the Clubhouse - lots of valuable stuff.

The point is - as we learn more we need to make the standard as accurate as possible and defininitely not split the bird so that dual mating is required to get a bird that fits the standard well. hope that made sense. :O)