Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[CibolaChooks]

In allot of ways i think were already doing this just on a smaller scale.

 

[call ducks]

Quote: By breeding more chickens you are creating more diversity - or getting to see more diversity, this allows for not only a clear picture of your birds phenotype and genotype, it allows you to see birds that stand out - you get to see those one in 700 chicks, those one in 1000 chicks - when trying to restore a breed it's not so much about breeding to a standard as it is ensuring you have sufficient heteros to be able to line breed. This will give you the same boost in heteros as crossing back to another breed would do, because genetically the offspring have a greater chance of being different (90 hens, 10 cocks, chances are the offspring will be different, and may not even share the same parents).

Small group mating's are not the best when it comes to newly imported breeds. CLB's have hit a bottle neck.

Crossing to another breed is a matter of opinion really. I can't tell if it's needed or not.

 

[WHmarans]

In allot of ways i think were already doing this just on a smaller scale.

That is sort of what I was thinking, except trying to do it on a smaller scale doesn't seem like it would be quite as effective, since everyone will breed the best of the few they have rather than the best of so many together. So rather than pooling the best of thousands together into a separate breeding pool, the best of what everyone has will be diluted with the rest of their stock rather than put together with the collective best... I'm not describing that very well.

 

[WHmarans]

By breeding more chickens you are creating more diversity - or getting to see more diversity, this allows for not only a clear picture of your birds phenotype and genotype, it allows you to see birds that stand out - you get to see those one in 700 chicks, those one in 1000 chicks - when trying to restore a breed it's not so much about breeding to a standard as it is ensuring you have sufficient heteros to be able to line breed. This will give you the same boost in heteros as crossing back to another breed would do, because genetically the offspring have a greater chance of being different (90 hens, 10 cocks, chances are the offspring will be different, and may not even share the same parents).

Small group mating's are not the best when it comes to newly imported breeds. CLB's have hit a bottle neck.

Crossing to another breed is a matter of opinion really. I can't tell if it's needed or not.

That makes sense, you're not only finding the best of so many but the relatively unrelated best of so many, which is unlikely to happen for a small breeder.

 

[call ducks]

Quote: yes - and when you breed to a SOP you are using the best of small population so you want to ensure that the population you start with is strong enough to support that. Right now with hens that are between 2-4 pounds the weights need to come up, and in order to do that they need some heteros

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
no matter what you do you just wont get 6 pound hens and 7 pound males by breeding 4 pound hens and 5 pound roosters, you could hatch 1,000 of them.... you can only do so much with large numbers, outcross to larger speciments is need it..

 

[WHmarans]

Quote:
Okay.. ducking for cover as I say this.. but wasn't GFF after preservation of the breed and breeding large numbers and all that? Might that not be part of the reason there are still gold and other non SOP attributes in their flock?

 

[call ducks]

Quote: No - I disagree because I have seen it done. It's not about how much they weigh right now but the genetic potential that exists. By hatching and culling large numbers you can increase that genetic potential.

UofA Light Sussex are a perfect example they are about the size of a leghorn in weight, but because they have a large breeding flock, you can increase the genetic potential by careful breeding . My line of Light Sussex that has heavy influence from the UofA hens now easily reach 6lbs.

 

[blackbirds13]

Quote:

Yours is an interesting choice...

I now believe I have pin down the Light vs Dark colored chick males..


it is believed that double barred males will have lighter chick down than females and single barred males, double barred males will have much lighter Pheomelanin(gold colored feathers) and Eumelanin(black colored feathers) making double barred males much lighter than single barred males not only on golder/cream colored feathers(making them look silverish when ig/ig is pressent on same bird) but also on the black feathers of males like in Barred Rock roosters being lighter than females barred rock hens........BUT something is going on in the Cream Creasted Legbar gene pool that some males hatch as dark as females or even darker. Why? they are NOT single barred that is for shure. then why?


its the barring gene, or Barring genes for that matter, there has been secuenced 3 different barring gene B1, B2 and B3, and also a Mutation called dominant sex linked Dilute that makes males nearly white and females normaly barred but this gene is called Bsd.


this genes(B2 and B3) have been found(secuenced) on the Barred rock linke and B1 on barred Leghorn lines...



The australian Plymouth Rock club reconises 2 types of Barred rocks, Dark Barred rocks and Light Barred Rock.. both lines share the same genetic back ground except the Barring gene.

Dark Barred Rock(no difference between males and females in shade of color)




Light Barred rock Male




both lines were tested for homozygosity for Barring.


now here is what I think is going on with Dark male lines from Green Fire Farms, this lines have the Dark Barring gene, and also the "Normal" barring gene found on American Barred Rock lines, What this means phenotypically? that Dark lines will have darker more pronounced black Barring on breast instead of gray and richer lemon colored hackle and saddle color. Why? their dark barring gene is unable to dilute the black feathers to grey colored and is also Unable to dilute the gold/Cream color to Silver as "normal" Barring would..


how about those grey light barred males in the UK that look silver? they carry the Light Barring gene, this gene dilutes the black barring to light grey barring and gold/cream feathers to silver looking feathers.

here is an example of a very pale looking male, note that his breast barring is light grey colored unlike the Silver Crele leghorn male shown in previous post



Dark Barred rooster(from GFF)




now lets go back at henks double barred male. he carries the Normal Barring gene found on american rock breeds, the double barring dilutes its hackles and saddles to a diluted tone of gold found on alot on American cream legbars, But his barring(breast, tail) is of a lighter Shade, what this means is if he was dark barred he would have richer gold tones like single barred males or dark barred males..






so Dark Males(hatched dark) will have darker barring and warm cream colored ornamental feathers
Light Barred Males(hatched Light) will have light grey barring and silverish colored hackles.

I would assume that B1/B2 males would look right in the middle just like normal barred males(henk examples). this will also affect females,


that is ofcourse an over simplified examples as Red enhancers are not taking into account here and could play a factor.

for example a double barred Wyandote silver crele male(note the light grey barring) with red enhancers will still show them even if S/S and B/B are pressent. note how his gold tones are still showing despite of having light barring, without the red enhancers he would have look silver grey barred

I am not sure I agree with your choice but he is my one of my F1's (Macbeth) so he'll be around and reading back on the thread we did have a discussion on barring prior to this one, in April 2013 . And you had proposed a dark barring gene as being the cause of this blacker barring and seemed to be supportive of a lighter, as you termed it more 'normal' gray barred coloring and that there was a light barring gene. Your supposition was there were 2 types of barring and that we wanted the lighter barring and should cull towards that.

I have some options in my pens and need to investigate this more as the one you have chosen is my oldest Macbeth and will stay but not the one I prefer which is the 3rd example I provided, as that looks closer to what I envision for the SOP. I think the 2nd example is closer to what the British birds look like and I do prefer his overall color tone as the 1st seems too dark for me. The 3rd's barring seems more clearly barred to me. It's a bit funny that in my recollection the darkness of the first was what you seemed to be steering us away from last year and the thoughts you are expressing now seem to be a bit anti-thetical to what you said back then. I will investigating this some but not sure I am going to follow your preference in my idea and ideal of the direction I want to go with my breeding plans.

This is my youngest. I call him lil' bit. I think he has nice potential so far.







I have found the listed weights interesting but not enough to go out and weigh my own birds at this time. I think I'll wait until spring and my youngest have started laying to see what they add up to. Everyone will have feathered out fully by then so I'm going to be able to really look them over for breeding potential when I set up my pens. My older girls seem to have sized up in the 2nd year and the eggs I'm getting from last years pullets are also larger. I wish I did have the room, time and financial ability to wait a year or so before I started breeding and then to breed thousands from my pens but that would be too much for me with the full time job, the art thing, kid thing, husband thing.... a whole bunch a' things.

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
No, I only agree if the birds were not feed right or stunned when chicks.. but if they were fed properly and with good temperature they should reach their genetic potential all by themselves...