Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[nicalandia]

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I did that because I did not paid much attention to the SOP and was looking at English CL and all of them showed light grey barring, so if they were winning shows I thought they had to follow the SOP, which now I know they dont....

 

[WHmarans]

Quote: There's the genetic potential of the individual and then there is the genetic potential the individual carries..? I don't know how it works, but it seems to happen in lots of species.


If it didn't we never would have gotten chihuahuas and great danes from the same dog ancestor?

 

[blackbirds13]

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Dark gray, evenly barred, well defined outline is the SOP language and I still think Macbeth is too dark because he is not necessarily even barred with a well defined outline on his barring on his breast. I think the British may have too much white in between the barring making them lighter or that the barring is less distinct and not even so it appears more gray in tone like number 2. I still like number 3 better. Color wise the hue is the same on all the birds above. What seems to be making the tone differ is the level and distinction of the white. There's an art term called Optical Mixing or Optical Art where black lines given their width and clarity and the distance between them and the white can cause the overall image to appear as a gray to the eye and less linear, it can also appear as black or a lighter gray... it's all in how close and parallel and precise they are.

ETA: I intend to keep a version of all three types to see what they all throw. I have a lot of hens so I'll have to see what's the best pairing this spring. The boys are still young so I'll have to make a more overall comparison to Macbeth when the time comes. I think he will throw some good chicks this year.

 

[nicalandia]

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your males are the closest males I've seen to what could be called evenly barred, but I would not called them well defined.. they look nice thou and I would add they are very close to the SOP that calls for a Crele bird with well defined, dark grey areas I still dont know whats affect the melanin expression on this different shades of gray males, it appears that the lighter the bird cream areas are, the lighter the grey baring, but its not always.. many genes maybe at play.. and I also dont know why their barring is not as well defined as some crele birds, its just very messy, you can see it on the heckle very well now chickcat Male..
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black birds how did your birds looked when they were about the same age as chickCat's male?

 

[nicalandia]

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now that I think about it, the Hens may play a factor here(they always do) I think the more faintly bared femals(the ones you cant hardly see any barring on ) will give these light breasted males with undefined cuckoo pattern. not sure, but since you will be mating and documenting this I would request for you to do this, probably cross the lightes, none defined males with overly barred females and see if this will yield better males and females?. you know there is always a balancing act here, just like buff breeding, breeding the darkest bird with the lightes one as to produce a middle grown to keep the good color

 

[blackbirds13]

black birds how did your birds looked when they were about the same age as chickCat's male?

My boys when younger are gray barred similar to above but lacking the brown tone on the breast. All my chicks that are cream are a lighter tone, not a solid or dark gray down but a gray with some brown tones - the SOP term of slatey seems best but still not totally accurate for my pens as I still have issues to resolve. The ones that are a dark gray always turn out too colorful. Lil' Bit seems to have some nice barring coming out in his saddle but he is way to young at this point for me to really judge him accurately. I need to separate him out on his own so he can really fill out since he is surrounded by giants in there but that'll be this spring. I have not noticed anything different between the darker gray and lighter gray barred boys when it comes to chicks down coloring specifically but I will be paying more attention next year. This past year I just looked for an overall lighter downed male and culled anything dark after a while as it was futile to grow them out.

I am a bit puzzled by your statements now as when we had the prior discussion you linked this darker barring to other over melanization issues and the lack of or inability to get 'true' cream in some areas and did put forth the idea of the 2 types of barring. Also this was last year in April when our SOP was pretty much solidified and very much a part of the discussion. I remember clearly my thoughts during this time as it was part of what was being represented in the SOP and in the birds here vice the UK birds in relation to the lighter down chicks and the resultant creamier birds allover tone. I do not wish to emulate the really light super light birds with so much white, especially in the tail and breast area but I do not think I wish to retain the very dark version in the GFF photo either.

This is why, no offense meant here, I may appreciate the input of those that know general genetics but prefer to see for myself and trust more the opinions and advice of people familiar with the breed itself. I am starting with a preference for the 3rd example but I like the overall tone of the second breast and judging the results from there. I will use Macbeth but need to think about how dark the barring appears and that it seems less "distinct" but rather a bit smudgey. I have a couple girls that look like they may not grow out the dark lines on their breast so I may experiment with them but am hesitant as I prefer not to breed anything with faults that I don't want to replicate if I can help it but maybe I'll try them only this year if I have the pen space. If it came down to having to breed faulty females to get good males I would need to rethink this whole thing as I am not wanting to double mate or reproduce non-standard birds but I have faith that will not be the case. I fully understand the balancing act you speak of but I think I have my own ideas on what direction I'd like to take and really only have so much time and space to grow out only so many birds. I am but a backyard breeder. I am not sure I have light females as you describe in my older hens. There is so much that is not known about the breed here and overseas that I am glad I do not make culling decisions based on just any of the hypotheticals put forth. I plan on breeding all three types and making decisions on what I prefer as I see them grow out. I do not prefer the barring you prefer so we are at diverging opinions for now. I appreciate the compliment and I do agree I have a long way to go and barring is just one of the battles to fight so it has to be balanced against other aspects I am looking at this next year.

 

[ChicKat]

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and I also dont know why their barring is not as well defined as some crele birds, its just very messy, you can see it on the heckle very well

hi nicalandia -

reading in Sigrid's book on genetics - the closely barred BPRs are E based and the Cream Legbars are e+ - This means, to my understanding, that the feather growth is different, and there are different undercolors as in the duckwing/wild type/partridge pattern and CLs will never (and because they are e+ based) show the BPR type of barring. And we wouldn't want that type of barring because the e+ chipmunk stripes are part of the ease of autosexing - and all of us would probably prefer good autosexing over tidy barring. ETA the barred leghorns could and probably are E based and not e+. Sigrid states that any e+ barred bird will be a Crele not a (in Europe cuckoo/in the USA barred). There is even a Crele orpington called the "Legbar Colored Orpington"....and also Crele Orpington.

The mono-colored birds preferred in the UK as some of the examples you showed many posts ago - also may be partially why the UK is "loosing autosexing" as this UK website mentions.

http://poultrykeeper.com/chicken-breeds/legbar-chickens

Unless changed since I originally encountered that website, "many Crean Legbars have lost their autosexing qualities." --( The paragraph right before BOOKS at the bottom. )

 

[ChicKat]

Because weights are everything. The first two things to go when a bird starts to get inbred is weight and fertility.
I have had bantam pullets that weigh as much as some of the CLB pullets....

There is a lot to be done to ensure that these birds don't get more inbred.

hi call ducks,

Thanks for your insights. The CL owners were really deeply concerned about inbreeding cooeficient early on - (Like a year and a half or 2-years ago)---- Complements to Greenfire Farms and Paul Bradshaw - he carefully imported several unrelated lines of CLs and has bred carefully - which is one of the reasons that our current birds are so healthy and doing so well. Hopefully, we will realize that everyone having descendants of the same prize-winning looking bird(s) isn't good for the long term homozygosity.

Since that time there has been discussion of approaches such as spiral mating - and I have also heard that Martin Silveruud With four strains made 144 RSS (Reciprocal Recurrent Selections)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1601-5223.1974.tb00931.x/pdf I am starting work with a Silverudd breed and very concerned by the possible cooeficient of inbreeding in them, but the CLs probably have a lot of homozygosity....

There could be a number of reasons why the hens are below the 6# target, including perhaps that the 6# target has some aspects of the arbitrary.

At one time the genetic material of CLs must have been very weak, but there has been a lot of out-crossing in the UK including to increase the size of the CL, with perhaps the people doing that not fully realizing all the ripple-effects in this complex genetic bird. And this is contributing to some of the confusion floating around.

all that being said, your observation that a lot of work is needed is probably very true. Some of us are tracking the 'pedigree' of our chickens to insure the greatest genetic diversity and strength, but there is also the consideration that line-breeding such as father-to-daughter will fix desired traits without boosting the cooeficient dangerously high.

Thanks for bringing this important consideration up.

 

[nicalandia]

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Old English Game(standard and bantams) show distinctive barring, and while is not as refined as BR they are still e+ based... besides black bird males I have yet to see birds with similar barring on breast on this forum also remember the Crele Leghorn males

 

[nicalandia]

A question to the SOP experts(still learning and trying to carefully study it) what does the SOP says about feathering on the Thighs? I have seen many that have seen Males with very soft featheing on them, also what does it say about the Barring on them, this is where I see the blured out barring pattern on the entire bird on most males here..